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#41 Christopher Price

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:17 PM

Glad I went again today with Jeff. Saw a few things I missed the first time (details), and came to understand the variety of filagree technique better.


It seems my impression that the beaded wire was crimped might be wrong, as I spotted more evidence of a beading knife now that I knew what to look for in the high-res photography available on the kiosk displays (little ipads in cases). Jeff and I spent some time in my shop, before some delicious steaks for dinner, trying to reproduce tooling. One approach with a forged piece, another with a machined one, I need to work both a little harder but I think we're onto something.


There also seem to be multiple methods of attachment, with some work soldered, other simply fused. One really nice piece with a detail I'd missed, where the beaded wire had been removed, and seeing what was underneath clearly opened my mind to a technique I wasn't really familiar with before. If anyone has a last-chance opportunity to see it in the next couple weeks before it's gone, I highly reccomend it.

I do hope someday better reseach-oriented photography becomes available to people like us, who are really digging the methodology of this craftsmanship.
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#42 Richard Furrer

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 08:43 AM

I do hope someday better reseach-oriented photography becomes available to people like us, who are really digging the methodology of this craftsmanship.


Given what the hoard is I also think it has not really been displayed or presented in a way for outside research. Given the time since the discoveries I would think that much more information is forthcoming....including more macro photos. I would wager that such things will be available digitally at some point. The IPad portion of the display with additional photos would work well as a downloadable APP I think.

Ric
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#43 Christopher Price

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:11 PM

There was one really funny moment yesterday, as Jeff and I were watching Dr. Leahy talk about the garnet cutting... he said something like "why didn't the cutting disks wear out?" to which, Jeff and I in unison said out loud, "they did." One mostly silent fear I harbor is that the conservators and professors are not applied craftsmen like most of us. That lack of perspective is going to color the way the information is conveyed, the way research is made available, and a lot of interpretation that is going to have to be filtered for practical knowledge. If someone from the "experimental archaeology" crowd could gain a partnership with the hoard staff, it would make a world of difference in the interpretive presentation of how some of this stuff was made, I bet, as well as provide a better point of access for re-creation attempts.
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#44 Mark Green

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:48 PM

Wouldn't that be nice Chris. The main web site seems to be dead. There is nothing new on it for over a month. It's like they have 3 people running the whole show. My inquiries about the new "cleaned" pics are never replied to. The answers I get from the FB people are just as evasive, if not outright ridiculous. It seem really sad, that someone can't answer one simple question.

Where are the "cleaned", multi-angle pictures. And why have they not yet been released?

Maybe when the Washington show is over they will make them available. If it's about money, I will be happy to pay.
I have begun to fear, that is ALL it is about.
This is the best site I have found. But, even here, many of the researchers want you to pay.

http://finds.org.uk/...hoardsymposium/

On another note, Chris,
A wire making buff and I are working on some Eutectic soldering experiments next week. I told him I had a bunch of copper salts from my Rokusho making experiments. He was thinking we could mix that with some flux, and gum tragacanth, and make some Saxon wire soldering paste. I'll take some pics and report back.
What were you planning on using?

Mark
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#45 Christopher Price

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:11 PM

I confirmed 2 different methods in use at the hoard display, what appears to be the eutectic fusing you mention, and chip-soldering, where material has flowed to fill in areas due to an excess of solder. I will probably try both, though I've never done fusing before. I have a cheap metal test article using twisted wire whorls, that I used fine chips of low-temp solder, and it basically tinned the background sheet and just barely hangs onto the work; I have no idea how it will play out with finer materials... but that test is coming up soon, and if it isn't a total disaster, will feature in my KITH blade.


Re-reading the section in McCreight on eutectic bonding, there's a confusing note on his Cu-Ag phase diagram. The chart suggests the C point is approximately 72% silver, the balance of copper... but below, C is noted as being 28.1% silver (melting at 1372*F). My instinct is to believe the chart, but I'd like confirmation that it's mostly silver and some copper, not the other way around.

Edited by Christopher Price, 22 February 2012 - 10:05 PM.

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#46 deker

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:01 PM

GAH! How did I miss this? CRAPCRAPCRAPCRAP! Maybe my schedule will allow me to get there this weekend...It's not likely, but I'll try....

-d

#47 Christopher Price

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:56 PM

Runs through the 4th, so you have next saturday as well.
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#48 Jesus Hernandez

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:12 AM

The Ag-Cu eutectic is 72% silver and 28% copper. What leads to believe that could have been their choice of solder? Have you considered a Au-Ag solder?

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#49 Richard Furrer

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:24 AM

There was one really funny moment yesterday, as Jeff and I were watching Dr. Leahy talk about the garnet cutting... he said something like "why didn't the cutting disks wear out?" to which, Jeff and I in unison said out loud, "they did." One mostly silent fear I harbor is that the conservators and professors are not applied craftsmen like most of us. That lack of perspective is going to color the way the information is conveyed, the way research is made available, and a lot of interpretation that is going to have to be filtered for practical knowledge. If someone from the "experimental archaeology" crowd could gain a partnership with the hoard staff, it would make a world of difference in the interpretive presentation of how some of this stuff was made, I bet, as well as provide a better point of access for re-creation attempts.


In India the used bow saws with cotton/hemp thread impregnated with oil and grit as the blade to saw out intricate fret work panels from thick stone. The thread broke often, but they just put in another and went on.
I liked that Dr. Leahy in the broadcast spoke of the gold foil background being of unknown manufacture, what with the intricate cross-hatching to catch the light. The brilliant editor chose to do a close-up of Patrick Barta's Sutton Hoo pommel..complete with gold foil reflecting the light. I laughed at that.

I think it a matter of jurisdiction...this is a very important find...there are papers and status and Phd's and fame to be gleaned...nobody wants to share that. I think there area dragons wishing to sit on the new hoard of gold.

Ric
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#50 Richard Furrer

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

The Ag-Cu eutectic is 72% silver and 28% copper. What leads to believe that could have been their choice of solder? Have you considered a Au-Ag solder?


Granulation techniques are well researched in the non-hoard context (Etruscan and Egyptian with gold and Japanese and Russian with fine silver) and there are several papers out there on copper/hide glue used as the marriage counselors between the ball/wire and the sheet substrate for gold. The copper alloys with the gold and becomes a non-issue.
I have a good video in fine silver granulation by Ronda Coryell

http://www.rondacory...site/AoGRosette

There was a resurgence of this technique in the 80's
http://www.jckonline...cient-technique

and this:
http://www.jewelryar...jun01granjj.cfm

It has always been on my list of stuff to do..then I got lost in steel. :( Damn you steel...damn you to fires of he.. hey thats a good idea I'll go light a fire...yea and make some steel....yea yea..

Ric
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#51 Mark Green

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:38 PM

According to Leahy, granulation soldering was not common on Anglo-Saxon jewellery.
At least before the Staffordshire hoard was found.

Of course, sticking gold to anything is pretty easy, but we don't have any of that to play with.
We are going to test silver, copper, and even brass wire, of different thickness, on different base plates.
It will likely be a bit tricky, as the melting points will be very close.
Making a period welding torch may be an idea. I'm good at melting stuff by mistake with my propane torch. :unsure:

Starting with the simple copper salts/flux/paste material. I plan to add some shibuichi, copper, and silver sawdust granules to the mix as we go to see what change that may make.

It should be fun to see what holds up, if any of it does. I will post the results reguardless, even if just to know what not to use :rolleyes:
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#52 Christopher Price

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

The Ag-Cu eutectic is 72% silver and 28% copper. What leads to believe that could have been their choice of solder? Have you considered a Au-Ag solder?



For the moment, my focus on silver is for my experimental reproductions, which I'm using .999 silver for (not gold) cause I can afford it. When we move on to the real deal, it will of course require a slightly different alloy.
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#53 Mark Green

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:28 PM

Hey Chris, I assume you have seen this:
http://www.google.co...bTBdgK6gcGnqZbg
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#54 Christopher Price

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:09 PM

Hey Chris, I assume you have seen this:
http://www.google.co...bTBdgK6gcGnqZbg



Yep, working that out now. The knife seems the best way to approach it, vs. the "file".
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#55 Richard Furrer

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:24 AM

A good article on three techniques of granulation with micrographs.

http://jewelrystudie...is-granulation/
This is the same jeweler who has the video I mentioned earlier.

Ric
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#56 Christopher Price

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:06 PM

Excellent link, thanks Ric.
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