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#1 N. Creel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:06 AM

I've been using Titebond woodglue for all my wood sheaths thus far, but it seems to be forming small spots of black rust along the edge of the blade if the blade is stored for any period of time (> 1 day) in the sheath.

What are some cheap alternatives? I know rice glue is traditional, but I was curious about the strength. Any thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,
Nathan

#2 Tim Crocker

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:13 AM

I have a friend who makes humidor's. He uses Gorilla Glue and swears by it. It is a polyurethane glue that expands slightly. I don't think you will have an oxidation problem with poly. It's a mess to work with and stays wet for hours before it starts to cure. I've used it and found it to be superior to a common wood glue, but as I said, a real mess. Its commonly available and cheap.
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#3 csc

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 03:56 AM

garilla glue is tough stuff but it does expand and foam out of the joints in both directions, so you would have to leave room for it.
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#4 Brett Josef Schmidthuber

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 05:20 AM

Gorilla glue ive used before on wood that literally showed no seam..but I like Devcon 2-ton, it doesnt really expand to My knowledge. Try em both I see and find whatcha like
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#5 CProkopp

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 09:12 AM

I really like Gorilla. It takes a little practice to get the amounts right to prevent over-flow. Wear gloves: that stuff is a PITA to get off the hands, and it turns your skin black. THAT won't come off, your skin has to grow out to get rid of the discoloration. Strangely, the skin feels dry and hard until it grows out. Weird sensation.
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#6 Brian Vanspeybroeck

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 09:51 AM

I have been using Elmers Wood Glue (and the Tightbond yellow wood glue) for about years and never had a problem with it. I primarily use poplar (now) for my saya/sheaths and my handle foundations and this glue is stronger than the wood in this application. I have never seen rust on any blades I put in these saya/tsuka and it's hard for me to believe that your problems stem from the glue.

Not to say its impossible. Just that I have never seen it happen... and I have gotten sloppy and had glue ooze into the blade channel. I know it is in contact with the blade at time in certain applications but I have never seen rust. I usually use 5160 but I have an L6 blade that resides in a saya 24/7 that is used to cut wet material frequently (soaked tatami omote) and then resheathed wet and dirty....no rust. Never. The blade is cleaned and reoiled and the saya is tapped against my palm at the end of cutting sessions to dislodge any crud that got trapped.

Rice glue is what I use when I want to be able to disassemble a joint again. I glue my tsuka halves together with rice glue as I do the final shaping and then just slide a thin knife blade between the sides and pop it open when it's done. Then I glue it permaently with the wood glue. I mix cooked rice with a little water and put it in the blender and whip it to make a white paste...it's easy.

Sticks good but has no strength. I'd mix up a little and try it if I were you but IMO it is inferior for stuff that is not going to be reinforced with more stout and robust materials later.

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#7 N. Creel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:44 PM

Thanks for the recommendations everyone. I have thought of trying gorrilla glue but was afraid of the expansion into the sheath. I'll probably give it a try. Devcon 2 ton is also something I'd like to try. I know that the strength can't be beat with either of those.

Brian, I am not really sure it is the glue. I use poplar and maple for sheaths and have had problems with both. I live in Memphis, so the humidity is always terrible. Some moisture may be trapped in the wood. My sayashi skills are also suspect. I may have too much room around the edge where moisture can accumulate.

I'll probably make a test blade and try several things. Thanks everyone for the help.

Nathan

#8 DGentile

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 03:45 PM

Nathan,
Whilst I will not give you any product recommendations, as I have basically no real Idea what stuff you got in the US, I still maybe can offer some "ideas":

- The wood you use? has it been stored for how long?
- has it been professionally dired?
- Get one of those humidity testers for wood (depending on the type and accuracy a bit costy... but if you search you don't have to pay too much).

I do not believe that the glue did cause your problems...
do always oil your blades well before storing into any kind of saya...
do you etch the blades?? (I guess maybe a dumb questions... but still if not perfectly neutralized and cleaned and then placed into a "humid" environment...".
Ever tried it with a different steel?? does it have the same effect?


Just some things which come to my mind when I think about "your" problem...
I had blades which developed rust only by touching them and leting the rest for a moment.... others still non stainless blades did take some good abuse before even showing some "rust"... I am still far from completly understanding "rust" and "oxidation"... sometimes it does just happen to be "worse" then other times...

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#9 N. Creel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 04:31 PM

Nathan,
Whilst I will not give you any product recommendations, as I have basically no real Idea what stuff you got in the US, I still maybe can offer some "ideas":

- The wood you use? has it been stored for how long?
- has it been professionally dired?
- Get one of those humidity testers for wood (depending on the type and accuracy a bit costy... but if you search you don't have to pay too much).

I do not believe that the glue did cause your problems...
do always oil your blades well before storing into any kind of saya...
do you etch the blades?? (I guess maybe a dumb questions... but still if not perfectly neutralized and cleaned and then placed into a "humid" environment...".
Ever tried it with a different steel?? does it have the same effect?
Just some things which come to my mind when I think about "your" problem...
I had blades which developed rust only by touching them and leting the rest for a moment.... others still non stainless blades did take some good abuse before even showing some "rust"...  I am still far from completly understanding "rust" and "oxidation"... sometimes it does just happen to be "worse" then other times...

daniel

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Daniel,

The wood I use is kiln dried lumber. I keep it stored inside a air conditioned place to avoid moisture. Rust doesn't form on places where the wood contacts the steel, but rather the places where the steel is in proximity to the seams. If I leave the blades outside the sheath, little or no rust forms. I don't think the problem is the wood.

The steel is definitely more prone to rust; but how much, I don't know. As I said, it doesn't rust outside the sheath. One blade only rust on one side of the edge, suggesting that the side with rust is somehow more susceptible due to the way the blade is lying in the sheath or the way the glue sits in the sheath.

I do oil my blades before storage but am changing to a different oil to see if what I've been using may be a culprit.

I etch my blades, but always clean the etchant off well (again it only happens in the sheath, thus probably isn't etchant).\

Skin residue is always a problem. I personally have a rather rust promoting residue, but I compensate by always insuring I clean the blades well after handling (I try to avoid touching my blades at all).

:unsure: Maybe the oil I've been using is interacting with the glue. Anyway, I'll have to get to the bottom of the problem.

Oh, and leather sheaths never rust my blades even if the dye is not sealed and touching the blade.

Thanks for the suggestion,
Nathan

#10 Brian Vanspeybroeck

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 06:22 PM

Is there any way some kind of contaminant got stuck in the saya? If it ain't the wood and it ain't the glue...and the sword doesn't rust if it is left out of the saya then there is something in there that is accelerating rusting.

Are you using an exotic oil? I always use mineral oil but I know of others who used Breakfree and WD40 and it reacted (allegedly reacted) with the glue and the wood. Sometimes chemical reactions caused by solder/flux residue from making habaki will give me fits...and not just under the habaki either.

I hate problems like this. :(

Brian

Edited by Brian Vanspeybroeck, 14 June 2005 - 06:26 PM.

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#11 dan pfanenstiel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 06:58 PM

It's the glue. Scott Slobodian checked with the titebond company and all of them are acidic exept for titebond 1. I had the same problem with staining blades using titebond 2 or 3. Went away using the original flavor. Pissed me off to chuck a couple of shira saya and a laquered saya.
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#12 N. Creel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:04 PM

Is there any way some kind of contaminant got stuck in the saya? If it ain't the wood and it ain't the glue...and the sword doesn't rust if it is left out of the saya then there is something in there that is accelerating rusting.

Are you using an exotic oil? I always use mineral oil but I know of others who used Breakfree and WD40 and it reacted (allegedly reacted) with the glue and the wood. Sometimes chemical reactions caused by solder/flux residue from making habaki will give me fits...and not just under the habaki either.

I hate problems like this. :(

Brian

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Well, I seem to be having the problem no matter what I use. However, some of the different things I've used are WD-40 to diplace any water followed by choji oil for rust prevention. Other than that I use birchwood casey's "sheath" rust preventor (it displaces water and prevents rust).
Posted Image. I've left honing oil on a knife blade, and that REALLY left some rust.

I could use plain choji oil, but after an etch and thorough rinse I thought water displacer wouln't hurt. Maybe a water dispacer is dissolving water in itself and holding it on the blade in connection with the glue somehow.

I'm going to have to be more consistant to find out if the lubricant is to blame. Unfortunately (not really), I'm going on vacation for a week so I'll have to wait until I get back to try anything. However, I think I'll look into the lubricant before I try the different glue. The titebond really works nicely on wood, as it should; and it dries very well giving no reason to rust steel.

Thanks,
Nathan

#13 N. Creel

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:07 PM

It's the glue. Scott Slobodian checked with the titebond company and all of them are acidic exept for titebond 1. I had the same problem with staining blades using titebond 2 or 3. Went away using the original flavor. Pissed me off to chuck a couple of shira saya and a laquered saya.

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Wow, this is it then! Thanks so much, I'll definitely make sure to only use original. I think mine was an interior/exterior formula. I knew that wood glue shouldn't be a problem, but didn't know why this one was. Thanks again.
Nathan
Edit: yep, blue label - titebond II is what I have.

Edited by N. Creel, 14 June 2005 - 07:11 PM.


#14 Brian Vanspeybroeck

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 09:53 PM

Many thanks, Dan! ....where is that little "I'm not worthy" guy?

I'm gluing up a saya tomorrow night and the stuff I have is Titebond. I guess I'm not up on the various versions of the stuff. The bottle I have is marked in red "Titebond" and then it says Original Wood Glue.

There is a disclaimer in the "user tips" section that says to use Titebond II for exterior applications. So, I'm assuming I have Titebond 1. :unsure:

I did a saya with this stuff a few months ago and my prized Clark L6 resides in it 24/7...no rust. I also have a couple 5160 blades housed in storage scabbards for *years* and have no rust on them. So hopefully I'm safe. B)

Or should I dump it and get another glue?

Cripes, Dan. What do I do now? :( Hold me....I'm frightened. :rolleyes:

Brian

Edited by Brian Vanspeybroeck, 14 June 2005 - 09:55 PM.

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#15 dan pfanenstiel

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 05:59 PM

See now, I had to walk all the way out into the shop so's I could read the bottle and make sure. Yep, should say Titebond, then "original wood glue" in a red labeled bottle. That'd be the original stuff. The others say "Titebond II" or "III" or "IV". Stay away from them.

I had gotten all ready for the vegas show last year, a couple of shira saya and two mounted blades in laquered saya, and the week before the show I pulled one out and little dark stains on the ha and mune. Pissed me off as it was close to a show. So I rubbed them out and put 'em away again. Couple of days later, same thing. At the show, I asked friend Slobodian who cleared it up fast. Luckily I didn't sell any of them with the glue defect. When I got home I had to start the woodwork all over again. Four blades total.

One of those lessons I won't forget.
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#16 Brian Vanspeybroeck

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 08:58 PM

Whew!! :lol:

I *just* (really! 5 minutes ago) glued a saya down with the Titebond original recipe that I have used for some time. So, now I feel safer. B)

And I thank you and Mr. Slobodian for sharing your hard earned information and keeping the rest of us out of trouble by your mistakes.

I hate rust. <_< Almost as much as I hate making saya twice.

Brian
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#17 dan pfanenstiel

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 05:46 PM

No problemo, Brian. I always perk up when I have a solution to a problem that I'm familiar with. Wish I had that more often.

BTW, it's only 20 feet across my living room to the shop. Just making easy things sound tough. The method I use to get new tools from my wife. New press is starting construction :D .
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#18 Michael Bouse

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 09:49 AM

Thaks a lot. I liked the joint that I was getting with the titebond but I was also getting rust along the spine and edge. Chucked the bottle and went back to Devcon even though it shows a seam. Now I know what to get in the future.

#19 Brian Vanspeybroeck

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 10:47 AM

Is the original Titebond still available? I guess I could just go to the store and look but it's easier to ask while I'm here. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water and change glues unless I can't get the original recipe anymore.....that stuff *RoCkS* as a wood glue. Very strong, dries and sets fast. I can glue/clamp a saya and then an hour later be back working on it again. Seams are invisible and if I match my wood well many people just can't believe it is maybe 5 pieces of wood. All my saya are 5 piece construction. And I have not had rust problems 'cause I'm not using the new fangled versions of the stuff.

I wouldn't give up on the Titebond unless the original stuff is no longer to be had. Good stuff.

Brian

Edit!

I can still get the original stuff! http://www.titebond....B.asp?prodcat=1

Edited by Brian Vanspeybroeck, 18 June 2005 - 10:53 AM.

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#20 dan pfanenstiel

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 05:07 PM

It's still in my local hardware store, should be available everywhere. I would suppose other brands of wood glue would perform similarly. The problem with the other titebonds was the ph levels. I would check other brands to make sure they are neutral ph.
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