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FORGING TITANIUM


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#1 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:04 AM

How do you forge titanium and heat treat it?

i was wanting to use high carbon steel as the cutting edge ...what do you think would work best with titanium?

can you think of any special problums with forgeing it?

#2 Kristopher Skelton

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:38 AM

I don't have any direct knowlegde (although my search has lead me to want to give it a shot) but I did find these that may help some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium
http://www.brothersg...ages/33080.html
http://www.key-to-me...ticle.asp?ID=42

let us know how it works out
Kristopher Skelton, M.A.

"There was never a good knife made from bad steel"
A quiet person will perish ~ Basotho Proverb


#3 DGentile

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 04:15 AM

How do you forge titanium and heat treat it?

i was wanting to use high carbon steel as the cutting edge ...what do you think would work best with titanium?

can you think of any special problums with forgeing it?

View Post


You confuse me a little bit to be honest :)

First... Titanium can not be forge welded to carbon steel or such stuff...

with the right flux, atmosphere and such it should be possible to weld different TI-alloys to eachother... but not to steel... it will simply not work... or at least there has not been found a way to do so...

Titanium can be soldered with some really special and expensive solder... thus it is possible to attach it to a piece of steel, but that would be complete nonsense for a knife as it would serve no purpose at all.



Titanium can not be heat treated in the same way as carbon steels...
TI Alloys are being heat treated to:
- Reduce residual stresses developed during fabrication (stress relieving)
- Produce an optimum combination of ductility, machinability, and dimensional and structural stability (annealing)
- Increase strength (solution treating and aging) (Attention: not comparable to any heat treatment you do with tool steels)
- Optimize special properties such as fracture toughness, fatigue strength, and high-temperature creep strength
(taken from: http://www.key-to-me...m/Article97.htm)

The toughest TI-Alloy I know is "TI 6246" which has it's upper maximum hardness somewhere arround 38 HRC ... this is SOFT compared to any hardened tool steel...
And most "standard TI Alloys" will have a hardness in the range between 21 and 35 HRC...
I've seen specs of special TI6242 (modified??) which was tested and had up to 43 HRC... but that is not "normal" as TI 6242 usually is within 28 HRC.
And there exists the "INCONEL 725HS" (HS for high strength) stuff.. which will get up to 42 HRC... and is being account as one of the hardest TI alloys available.

My information might be a bit "outdated" so there maybe are some harder alloys available, but nut by much I guess.

Forging, well forging is possible without problems... tell you it's tough stuff but not a big problem...
back in the days when I worked as industrial smith, we used to make parts for high pressure tanks from titanium (not the actual tanks... these were still made from steel)... stuff was heated to the lower orange range and than placed in the high pressure press... and "wooosh"... done :)

Titanium can be hand forged as well...



Overall from reading your post I'm guessing you want to make that "All indestructible, corrosion resistant titanium knife"...
well forget about it again..
even the toughest TI-Alloy is yet far off from a good heat treated tool steel (be this plain carbon, chromium or other CPM stuff).
There are some areas of use, where a not so hard, not so cutting but very corrosion resistant blade is what you want... for this tough TI-Alloys are ok... but do not believe it will be a performance cutting knife... it simply will not.

Titanium is not the cure for all problems, nor is it superior to any steel...
TI has it's own set of properities, thus having some advantages over steel and other materials, just as aluminum has or steel has or wood has...
different materials for different purposes...
I know there has been and still is to some extent a lot of hype arround TI ... and basically most of the hype-stuff is plain ol' BS to be honest.
Especially as technically speaking it is wrong to say TI... TI is never used in "plain form"... it's always an Alloy.


If you want more information about the heat treament for TI-Alloys I recommend you to read:

http://www.key-to-me...m/Article97.htm


cheers

Daniel
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#4 DFogg

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 04:24 AM

I have forged some titanium and found it to work nicely. Scaling is problematic because it is difficult to remove. I haven't ever welded, but Mardi Meshejian demonstrated it at Batson's Hammerin this Spring. Given the problems with oxides, I would recommend can welding to be safe.

There are many choices when it comes to titanium, but if you intend to weld it to steel, it would be good to have the forgeability in the same range or it will tear itself apart. Definitely not going to be a simple material to work with.

Don Fogg


#5 DGentile

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 04:28 AM

I have forged some titanium and found it to work nicely. Scaling is  problematic because it is difficult to remove. I haven't ever welded, but Mardi Meshejian demonstrated it at Batson's Hammerin this Spring. Given the problems with oxides, I would recommend can welding to be safe.

There are many choices when it comes to titanium, but if you intend to weld it to steel, it would be good to have the forgeability in the same range or it will tear itself apart. Definitely not going to be a simple material to work with.

View Post


don,

that amazes me... but until now I believed welding it to steel, due to the different temperatures and such things it would require is kind of "impossible" (forge welding)...
??

I know ti-alloy to ti-alloy can be done... but ti-alloy to steel? I doubt it :)

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#6 DFogg

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 07:23 AM

I have come to believe you can stick anything together at this point. At any rate there is a brand name Timascus for laminated product.

Don Fogg


#7 DGentile

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 07:30 AM

I have come to believe you can stick anything together at this point. At any rate there is a brand name Timascus for laminated product.

View Post

:D :D
I have seen the timascus before... TI-Alloy on TI-Alloy...

Steel on TI-Alloy I still have doubts about that one... the two materials have different "expansion rates", melting point, oxidize quite differently...
I'm not saying it is not possible... It just gives me a hard time believing this could be done in less than perfect laboratory conditions.

however, If you can make it :) I'll bring over a good bottle of Single Malt Whiskey...

Would be an interesting experiment though... hmm... I've got some titanium alloy (aircraft stuff..) arround... and lots of steel...
maybe next time I bring the forge up to welding heat I'll "can" a bit of that stuff and see if I can bring it to stick together...


cheers

daniel
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#8 DFogg

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 09:21 AM

The surfaces have to be clean of oxides. I found that a green rock wheel like you use to grind carbide works well. Ric Furrer just had Mardi over for a visit and they made some titanium Damascus and rolled it out with Ric's mill. I will send him an email and maybe he can join the conversation cause like I said I don't have much experience with it.

Don Fogg


#9 Richard Furrer

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 09:58 AM

The surfaces have to be clean of oxides. I found that a green rock wheel like you use to grind carbide works well. Ric Furrer just had Mardi over for a visit and they made some titanium Damascus and rolled it out with Ric's mill. I will send him an email and maybe he can join the conversation cause like I said I don't have much experience with it.

View Post


Hello All,
I can take no credit for what Mardi is up to:
http://bladegallery....s=small&alt=one
Have a look above to see how far he has taken this technology.
I expect very interesting things from him in the future.

As to sharing the specifics......I leave that up to Mardi, but I think it best to give him some time to make back all his R&D money. He has spend quite a bit of energy to get this process to where it is and he should reap the benefits and accolade.

Don is correct, I believe, that anything can be bonded.............the usefulness of the bond is debatable however.

Ric
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#10 mete

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 10:08 AM

" usefullness of the bond" industrially they do join steel and titanium for things like heat exchangers. However becasue of the various problems they use 'explosive bonding ' I'm sure lots of bladesmith would like to do that in their backyards !!! :rolleyes:

#11 polarbearforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 10:34 AM

I watched Mardi to Ti to Ti pattern welding at Batson's. He also had some samples of the same as well as some Ti to steel to Ti. It is possible. IIRC, he wasn't at 100% success rate on either.

As far as I understand, the process to make Timascus and the titanium laminate that Mardi was doing are just a little bit different overall .

Jamie
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#12 DGentile

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

I watched Mardi to Ti to Ti pattern welding at Batson's.  He also had some samples of the same as well as some Ti to steel to Ti.  It is possible.  IIRC, he wasn't at 100% success rate on either. 

As far as I understand, the process to make Timascus and the titanium laminate that Mardi was doing are just a little bit different overall . 

Jamie

View Post



Thanks Don & Jamie...
learned something new :)

I mean I firmly believed that forgewelding steel and titanium alloys was a thing (almost) impossible ... due to the different nature of both materials.

I appreciate the information.


mete:
Now that sounds like something just made for me :)
explosive bonding...
if that ain't fun I don't know anymore :ylsuper:


daniel
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#13 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:29 PM

I don't have any direct knowlegde (although my search has lead me to want to give it a shot)  but I did find these that may help some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium
http://www.brothersg...ages/33080.html
http://www.key-to-me...ticle.asp?ID=42

let us know how it works out

View Post


:ylsuper: i spent many hours yesterday doing web searches found #1..missed on 2+3...im going to try find thomas powers as he may know more..

site 3 was great and ill research it further

thanks....

#14 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:42 PM

You confuse me a little bit to be honest :)

First... Titanium can not be forge welded to carbon steel or such stuff...

with the right flux, atmosphere and such it should be possible to weld different TI-alloys to eachother... but not to steel... it will simply not work... or at least there has not been found a way to do so...

Titanium can be soldered with some really special and expensive solder... thus it is possible to attach it to a piece of steel, but that would be complete nonsense for a knife as it would serve no purpose at all.
Titanium can not be heat treated in the same way as carbon steels...
TI Alloys are being heat treated to:
- Reduce residual stresses developed during fabrication (stress relieving)
- Produce an optimum combination of ductility, machinability, and dimensional and structural stability (annealing)
- Increase strength (solution treating and aging) (Attention: not comparable to any heat treatment you do with tool steels)
- Optimize special properties such as fracture toughness, fatigue strength, and high-temperature creep strength
(taken from: http://www.key-to-me...m/Article97.htm)

The toughest TI-Alloy I know is "TI 6246" which has it's upper maximum hardness somewhere arround 38 HRC ... this is SOFT compared to any hardened tool steel...
And most "standard TI Alloys" will have a hardness in the range between 21 and 35 HRC... 
I've seen specs of special TI6242 (modified??) which was tested and had up to 43 HRC... but that is not "normal" as TI 6242 usually is within 28 HRC.
And there exists the "INCONEL 725HS" (HS for high strength) stuff.. which will get up to 42 HRC... and is being account as one of the hardest TI alloys available.

My information might be a bit "outdated" so there maybe are some harder alloys available, but nut by much I guess.

Forging, well forging is possible without problems... tell you it's tough stuff but not a big problem...
back in the days when I worked as industrial smith, we used to make parts for high pressure tanks from titanium (not the actual tanks... these were still made from steel)... stuff was heated to the lower orange range and than placed in the high pressure press... and "wooosh"... done :)

Titanium can be hand forged as well...
Overall from reading your post I'm guessing you want to make that "All indestructible, corrosion resistant titanium knife"...
well forget about it again..
even the toughest TI-Alloy is yet far off from a good heat treated tool steel (be this plain carbon, chromium or other CPM stuff).
There are some areas of use, where a not so hard, not so cutting but very corrosion resistant blade is what you want... for this tough TI-Alloys are ok... but do not believe it will be a performance cutting knife... it simply will not.

Titanium is not the  cure for all problems, nor is it superior to any steel...
TI has it's own set of properities, thus having some advantages over steel and other materials, just as aluminum has or steel has or wood has...
different materials for different purposes...
I know there has been and still is to some extent a lot of hype arround TI ... and basically most of the hype-stuff is plain ol' BS to be honest.
Especially as technically speaking it is wrong to say TI... TI is never used in "plain form"... it's always an Alloy.
If you want more information about the heat treament for TI-Alloys I recommend you to read:

http://www.key-to-me...m/Article97.htm
cheers

  Daniel

View Post


hello daniel

well im not going to dispute you but try this..look up mardi meshejian abs js knives as it seams he has just done it.. :blink: ..this is what got me on this quest lol

it seams he used going by what he poted 6a14v/cp3 what ever that means?

i love the colors on the blade .i know it adds no meaningfull features other than color.oh yes its acid resistece but that means little to me...but he has it with high carbon steel...

i saw a posting that mardi was going to tannerhill or was there?..i can't make it sad to say this year...

thank you for your input and thoughts..i value them

#15 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:47 PM

I have forged some titanium and found it to work nicely. Scaling is  problematic because it is difficult to remove. I haven't ever welded, but Mardi Meshejian demonstrated it at Batson's Hammerin this Spring. Given the problems with oxides, I would recommend can welding to be safe.

There are many choices when it comes to titanium, but if you intend to weld it to steel, it would be good to have the forgeability in the same range or it will tear itself apart. Definitely not going to be a simple material to work with.

View Post


hi don

"can welding"??

what steel would you say would fill that "forgeabilty"iyho?

if i wanted simple things ,id not of ever gone into forgeing steel..ill try almost anything.

#16 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 12:51 PM

don,

that amazes me... but until now I believed welding it to steel, due to the different temperatures and such things it would require is kind of "impossible" (forge welding)...
??

I know ti-alloy to ti-alloy can be done... but ti-alloy to steel? I doubt it :)

daniel

View Post


daniel don't feel bad for i was like you till yesterday when doing research on line i found mardi and it blew my feeble mind so thats why i posted it in order to get more info if possable and inform others and mybe throw new ideas and thought out there for feed back..

#17 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 01:05 PM

Hello All,
I can take no credit for what Mardi is up to:
http://bladegallery....s=small&alt=one
Have a look above to see how far he has taken this technology.
I expect very interesting things from him in the future.

As to sharing the specifics......I leave that up to Mardi, but I think it best to give him some time to make back all his R&D money. He has spend quite a bit of energy to get this process to where it is and he should reap the benefits and accolade.

Don is correct, I believe, that anything can be bonded.............the usefulness of the bond is debatable however.

Ric

View Post


hello ric

ya can't blame me for wanting to know how its done...i can see him getting full credit and his investment back plus.....on usefullness i agree.it just amazeing that he did it and it makes a very interesting and pretty art knife ..

thank you for your post

#18 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 01:06 PM

" usefullness of the bond"  industrially they do join steel and titanium for things like heat exchangers. However becasue of the various problems they use 'explosive bonding ' I'm sure lots of bladesmith would like to do that in their backyards !!!  :rolleyes:

View Post



lol..i would like to try that... :D ..i got a spare acre or two....

#19 DGentile

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 01:07 PM

daniel don't feel bad for i was like you till yesterday when doing research on line i found mardi and it blew my feeble mind so thats why i posted it in order to get more info if possable and inform others and mybe throw new ideas and thought out there for feed back..

View Post


Bad?? not at all I'm just amazed...
I try to keep an open mind and try to remember that things I've learned yesterday might be outdated tomorrow.
but that's one of the aspects which keeps learning interesting, it's a never ending task.

but enough of the philospohy... I'm not much into titanium stuff... but just out of pure ol' curiousity I'll have to give this a try (and more likely fail at it)... :)

this is one of the things I just love about the forum... it's an open exchange. And here for all to profit & share.


Cheers

Daniel
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#20 blackdragonforge

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 01:13 PM

Thanks  Don & Jamie...
learned something new :)

I mean I firmly believed that forgewelding steel and titanium alloys was a thing (almost) impossible ... due to the different nature of both materials.

I appreciate the information.
mete:
Now that sounds like something just made for me :)
explosive bonding...
if that ain't fun I don't know anymore  :ylsuper:
daniel

View Post


lol@daniel ,..theres no problum that can't be solved with the use of recreational use of high exsplosives..

;)




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