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Tire hammer plans?


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#1 will52100

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 08:51 PM

I am in need of a decent hammer and seems like I'll never get a chance to work in a class on these. Anybody have plans for this hammer? Or can I just copy the linkage from a little gaint? I realy like the simplicity of the design, but don't have a lot of time to"well lets see if moving this a 1/2" this way helps" I have a mill and lathe, and will have a surface grinder before long. How dificult would it be to build?

Any ideas? I have a press and it's nice, but not the best for low temp forging carbon steels.

Was suposed to go to a workshop last year but only six people signed up and it got canncelled.

Help?

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#2 John Frankl

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 12:33 AM

I'd love plans too. I'm in Korea most of the year. I thought about the class in Maine, but it is already full.

John

#3 Geoff Keyes

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 12:35 AM

A buddy and I built a hammer, along the lines of a Champion. We used car leaf springs for the spring linkage. The thing I was most impressed with was the fact that it worked pretty much right from the get go. We had to tinker the foot peddle a bit, but that was it.

These things are not rocket science. The smiths who built them in the 19th century were good jackleg tinkerers, but not engineers. We just guessed the number of springs to use, figuring we could adjust if it didn't work, but it worked first time.

If you are confident of your fabrication skills, I'll bet yours will work too.

Good Luck

Geoff
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So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy.

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#4 Mike Blue

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:25 AM

Clay Spencer, the fellow who demonstrates this design, will be doing just that at the MN Guild of Metalsmiths conference the weekend of September 15 2006. It's another option to see it done before trying it yourself.

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#5 John Frankl

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 09:36 AM

Cool Mike, Thanks.

But what about a set of plans--since the thing doesn't appear to be "secret"? Or even better, what about making a DVD of one of these sessions and selling it?

John

#6 A Flor

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:45 AM

Cool Mike, Thanks.

But what about a set of plans--since the thing doesn't appear to be "secret"? Or even better, what about making a DVD of one of these sessions and selling it?

John


Looks like a Little Giant wannabe.
3/8 or 1/2 tubing for the ram..
Helper coil spring from a shock from a 4X4.
If anyone has a Little Giant, could pretty much copy the mechanism.
Only fly in the oilment I see is the ram guide..
If your industrious you could pour babbit or just do the down and dirty thing and
braze a collar of bronze sheet on the upper and lower ram guide 2" or so, to take up the slack and act as a bearing..even brass would work.
You might have to change it more often but we're smiths, we're supposed to burn things up and rebuild it....har..har.. :rolleyes:
Don' see why it would'nt work..
I love junk yard toys.. :P

Josh

Edited by A Flor, 18 June 2006 - 11:25 AM.


#7 will52100

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 06:58 PM

The ram guids wouldn't be a problem, the one there doing at the workshops uses ultra high density polyurithane. If I build one on my own I'll use teflon, I have access to some thick pieces that I might could mill down to act as a bearing. The head is filled with lead to get the 50# wieght.

A DVD of one of the workshops would be great. So would a set of acurate plans.

They are trying to get a hammer workshop going in Jackson MS, but me and two others are the only ones interested at this time, and they need about 15 people to keep the cost down. If anybody is in the Jackson area and is interested give me an email and I'll put you intouch with the guy trying to get it going.

I may just have to take a tape to a little giant and see what I can come up with.

#8 A Flor

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:04 PM

:lol:

The ram guids wouldn't be a problem, the one there doing at the workshops uses ultra high density polyurithane. If I build one on my own I'll use teflon, I have access to some thick pieces that I might could mill down to act as a bearing. The head is filled with lead to get the 50# wieght.

A DVD of one of the workshops would be great. So would a set of acurate plans.

They are trying to get a hammer workshop going in Jackson MS, but me and two others are the only ones interested at this time, and they need about 15 people to keep the cost down. If anybody is in the Jackson area and is interested give me an email and I'll put you intouch with the guy trying to get it going.

I may just have to take a tape to a little giant and see what I can come up with.


Hi Will..
Teflon..yea....hummm... ;)

The toggle on the fly wheel..looks like a pillow block..maybe 1 1/4"-1 1/2"??
Mounted to some tubing cut for for the toggle arm mount.??

I have access to about 7 or 8 round 'bridge bearings' a fellow has up on the mountain..
Solid round about..er..4" round X - about 3'??
About 250-300 lb a piece..
Has a 1" hole cut through used for the cable for hanging a bridge..
Weld up the hole and could use for the anvil...
With 1/2" plate mount and dies, should bring it up to just about the right height.

How did they mount the dies?
Dovetail or bolt on?

The little giant linkage is ok, but this particular design may require alot of tweaking.
Also, more moving joints in the linkage. (More bends in the plumbing, easier to stop it up..)
To get around the linkage problem, I found this..
http://www.anvilfire...power/index.htm
It's under JY roller hammer.
Seems you could adapt the linkage and cut down alot of moving parts.
Also adjustable...

Whatcha think?


(I should stop now..if I don't..there will be ominous sounds, flashes and the sound of Heavy Metal rock emanating from my shop in the dark of night..)

Josh

Edited by A Flor, 19 June 2006 - 12:55 AM.


#9 will52100

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 01:22 PM

I remember when Robert built that hammer. The roller guid is a nice idea, but I think the toggle link design has more merit. I could be wrong, I often am, but the toggle link should have a little more "snap" to it.

The Bridge bearing should work, may want to add a little width at the bottom, like a pyrimid to add weight though.

I'm not sure but I think the dies are bolt ons, but I could be wrong. If I do it I'll probably mill dovetails with a set screw.

#10 Mike Blue

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:30 PM

If I remember correctly, the Guild of Metalsmiths videos these demonstrations. I don't know if there are drawn plans. After the conference, there should be a copy of any videos in the library on the GoM website. They usually charge a small fee for the DVD.
There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. Will Rogers

#11 hickstick

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:08 PM

I've been wondering if one couldn't build a non-motorized, treadle version of the tire hammer???

#12 Ken Burns

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:40 PM

We had a tire hammer workshop here in Tallahassee 3 - 4 weeks ago. Ron is writing article for Clinker Breaker. Will send it when he gets it done. Clay said plans would be out 'soon'. I've only used a PH once before so I really can't compare it to anything. However I'm well pleased with it so far.
Ken

#13 will52100

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 08:36 AM

Clay's been saying that the plans were coming for over a year now. I'm about to the point of just building something along the lines of the tire hammer with a spring set-up like was shown on the roller guid hammer.

I don't need step by step plans, just good acurate "blueprints" type shop drawings. As long as I know where to cut and drill I can figure out how to cut and drill.

#14 A Flor

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 12:52 PM

Clay's been saying that the plans were coming for over a year now. I'm about to the point of just building something along the lines of the tire hammer with a spring set-up like was shown on the roller guid hammer.

I don't need step by step plans, just good acurate "blueprints" type shop drawings. As long as I know where to cut and drill I can figure out how to cut and drill.


I agree.
Even if 'plans' were available, the reality is, most smiths end up using salvaged parts or what is available in their own area or redesign the gear anyway. .
Many times the parts does not meet the criteria of the plans
The plans would have to be followed exactly to get a working model.
That being said, once the theory is established, as you said it's a matter of cut and drill.

I just got an estimate at the locate recycle steel yard.
About $250 for the mainframe, ram, base and miscellanious pieces. This is with 3/8" tubing and 1/2" plate.
I'm taking a trip next week and round up a 'bridge bearing' (4"X3' round ) for the anvil.
Two choices one would make is..
1. Type of linkage..
The 'Little Giant' type or spring recoil like the roller hammer.
The Spring is simpler.
The 'LG' linkage with a little R&D could be made.
I don't know the advantage of either based on the weight, throw etc.
It's a gut feeling guess.
From an personal artist standpoint..(if that matters..) the LG has more..er..personality and relates to an era of mechanical devices of the turn of the century.
I know it does'nt make a difference as far as working capability is concerned, but, as I said, I'm an artist and like design as well as function.
It is also more of a challedge to build and build it correctly.

The question is bearing at the joints..
Trying to use off the shelf material that copies a mechanical design that is some 80 years old, will hold up over long term without the linkage flying apart and sailing across the shop is a challedge. (Igor hates flying objects.. :P )
The laboratory has been doing some R&D in that area for grins and chuckles using bronze bearing and oilers at the joints.
The linkage 'copies' the 'LG' as close to possiable using yard materials and stock.
Adjustment is using the tie rods to an old Ford.
Rather it would hold up is another question.
(Elvira said to mount it outside..she does'nt want her new craft table a victim of 'collateral damage.. :lol: )
The worse that could happen I suppose is to tear it apart and redsign.
We'll see..

Below are two pics.
One the LG..(natch) and the Tire Hammer.

Note the postiion of the linkage on the LG and position of the lower toggle arms with the ram.

Note top throw adjustment on LG..
I don't make one out on the Tire Hammer (photo?).

If anyone has ideas on the connection of the toggle arms and bearing, chime in..

Josh

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Edited by A Flor, 25 June 2006 - 01:24 PM.


#15 Bruce Godlesky

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 09:18 AM

I had an email from Clay Spencer yesterday stating that he hadn't printed anything up yet and had no idea when that would happen.
What I would like to see is a schematic/blowup of the linkage/hub connections. bruce
www.BirdogForge.com

#16 Dan Fronefield

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:36 AM

Irontree_JYH.jpg

I had an email from Clay Spencer yesterday stating that he hadn't printed anything up yet and had no idea when that would happen.
What I would like to see is a schematic/blowup of the linkage/hub connections. bruce


I saw a version of this with a Shock used in place of the linkage. Pros & Cons? Seemed like a simple replacement although I have no idea how well it might work.

Edited by Dan Fronefield, 27 June 2006 - 10:43 AM.


#17 Alan Longmire

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 10:06 AM

Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.

#18 xardoz

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 10:43 AM

Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.


I wonder if anyone's tried a motorcycle or coil-over type shocks - say two mounted parallel to each other? Getting a pair from junked bikes should be cheap, and by using two in tandem, you might be able to compensate for the fact that they're built for lighter loads than car shocks.

Maybe a Mcpherson strut? You'd have both spring and dampening - although again, maybe too much mush.

Just brainfartstorming while waiting for software to load . . .

#19 Dan Fronefield

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 10:44 AM

Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.


Hmmm...do you mean something like these?

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#20 Alan Longmire

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:09 PM

Hmmm...do you mean something like these?



Bingo! :D




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