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John Page

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John Page last won the day on May 10

John Page had the most liked content!

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About John Page

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  • Birthday May 11

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    Half way between somewhere and nowhere
  • Interests
    Bladesmithing, blacksmithing, Norse mythology, archery, cartography, woodworking

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  1. John Page

    Building a Metal Dust Collector

    Great stuff Niels! This is a wonderful endeavor that I'm excited to continue watching- a very relevant application of engineering towards a frustrating problem. Have you tried a stack of neutral density lenses? One or two of those on a small aperture with an IR filter thrown in should do the trick. I'm not sure if the ND filters measure strength in the same way as the welding shade intensity scale, but it might be worth a try. Cheers!
  2. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Had some weird problems uploading images because of my connection, but should be working now--
  3. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Been talking to some structural engineers, and the possibility of a clearspan for the first layer spreading timbers is looking less and less likely, although not fully out of the question depending on overall scale of the building. During the discussions, the topic of 3D models came up and the necessity for clarity in communications, so I learned a little bit and devised a functional drawing. I'm glad I went through the process, as it made a few key points more obvious in their need for closer examination. While it isn't meant to be taken for dimensioning in any way, the way pieces align and the problems with intersections is much clearer. First, the clean room was lowered by another foot to accommodate the main roof beam of the woodshop intersecting with the metal shop roof. Second, and although I knew it would be somewhat of a problem, the way the column supports interact with the top/2nd level horizontal bracing beams is a bit off. Because the two overlapping triangles formed by the two positions of the vertical beams are concentric but not equal in size, there is no excribed circle which can join all 6 points at the same time. While in theory that isn't a problem, the later geometry is. Long story short, the extension from those beams to support the 2nd level beams is not perfect, and do not align with the corners perfectly. Maybe it's a problem, maybe not, but I'll leave that one to the engineers. Third, the grinding room/restroom segregations within the clean room look like they are still viable if I use the front bit of the clean room where it adjoins with the metal shop, annexing almost the full width of the adjoining wall save a piece wide enough (5ft?) for a hallway leading to the back. With an overall length of the annex extended to 35ft, that leaves plenty of space in the back side for equipment and workspaces. I'll make another model for that eventually, but work has been just short of actual insanity lately. Finally, the addition of the forge chimney. The way all the roof timbers intersect would make it near perfect for a near-circular chimney in the centre, but it is also looking like it will be scary tall. More to follow on that line of thought when I can do some more drafting. The alternative is still to have it on one of the north/eastern walls, there being enough space between main roof timbers to support a rectangular chimney there. And now, the real reason for the update, some screenshots of the 3D model so far. No walls in place for the sake of being able to see what's going on, but all the major structural elements are there. Cheers! John
  4. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Josh, The ceiling would be radial, and all the beams at the top of the walls are there to take some of the spreading. The original idea was to have them be either be 9 single, continuous beams with joinery wherever they intersect, or at most two beams joined in the middle (making each one ~17-20ft depending on the scale). The line on the top would be similar in shape to the beams on the tops of the walls, but in addition to helping with spreading, they would also be the support for the air-moving apparatus to help with circulation. It is, though, a frightening amount of timber/joinery to deal with. Introducing either metal or fabricated beams makes it less concerning as far as size to weight to strength ratio is concerned, but that will have to be made by someone more informed and certified than myself. Using the acute corners for storage would probably be what they end up as, but visualizing it from an other-than-top-down aspect makes more sense, especially with a primary compliment of hand tools around the edges of the space. The bathrooms though! Having the long edge being the adjoining wall makes it so much easier to figure out, because it doesn't sacrifice any of the transit space down the length of the room. Otherwise, I would probably have to put it all the way at the end away from the hot shop, and the question of the grinding room is still up in the air. For the long wall adjoining, it would be on the far right side and also house the compressor/washtub/water tank that have no other place to live. The engineering side of the project is finally starting, and so in the next week or two I'll have a more solidified idea of what is possible, and from there narrowing down the options accordingly. Once again, thanks for the input, it's greatly appreciated! John
  5. John Page

    Epona - a La Tène period Celtic sword

    Collin, that's incredible! Everything about it is in harmony, down to the wonderful textures showing in the bog oak. The fit between all of the handle components is impressive to say the least! Although beautiful in its own right, it looks like it wants to be wielded and worn beyond the simple guise of ornamentation. Wish I could see it in person! John
  6. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    All right! Finally able to get the latest revision uploaded. First is the various scalings of the building based on the constraint of a few of the different dimensions. The first limits the side length to 18ft, which is the closest whole number to the original size. It reduces the overall footprint by about 200 sqft, and the longest unsupported span to just under 43ft. Similar, the third one lengthens the walls to 20ft, but the longest beams are now 47,5ft long, and without any supports there it would probably be unrealistic to have them free floating without the introduction of some metal. The second one limits the unsupported beam length to 40ft, and therefore the overall size of the building shrinks another 200 sqft or so. Even so, I'm of the mind that any of these lengths of beam would require additional support and reinforcing as previously discussed. Finally, the last one enlarges the building to have a 50ft diameter (not radius like labelled) inscribed circle. Sitting around in the desert currently looking at the standard size of the shipping container barricades (each one 40ft long for a full box and 20ft for a half box) it seems like a floorplan around the previously sized-without-visual-reference is about right for the size of space I'd like to have. Next up are a few of the alternative adjoining rooms plans if the roof pitch joinery and angular relations don't work out. Each one assumes that the clean room foundation wall is in the same plane as the shop rather than having it rise up and enclose 3 full sides like the original designs. The only reason for this is solving part of the problem with building into a hillside. This allows for some additional covered space outside and ease of construction. That being said, the first of the two plans has the room oriented opposite the original plan, with the short end against the adjoining wall and extending outwards from there. The other two offset lines are an extension of the roofline, allowing for a covered area about 6ft deep running the length of the wood/clean shops. I figure it would leave outside storage space for wood and coal and other odds and ends. The shop oriented this way also makes it easier to run a gantry along the line of the ceiling, but it would be necessary given the lack of hillside. Then again, the orientation could still serve in that capacity so it is not limited in that way. Of course, if the terrain permits that, the roof extensions would not be feasible. Second has the wood shop occupy a space that is not rectangular. I'm not sure if I like this at all, but I thought I'd see what it looks like. The three options for the outside walls have it either 1) follow the line of the roof joists all the way out, which looks the worst from above but would probably be the strongest and easiest given the relationships of the angles. 2) a wall perpendicular to the face of the other two, making 90 degree corners. That leaves some weird geometry for the roof intersection, but would provide the most usable space inside. 3) having the outer walls extend straight out in the 'north' direction so that they are parallel to the centreline of the room. That makes the most sense aesthetically and holds closest to the original design of a rectangular room oriented with the long wall adjoining, but has the weirdest corners and most likely to have awkward or unusable space. In any event, I'll probably stop considering any of those ideas, but I thought I'd put it out there to more fully encompass the design process I'm going through. Focusing on the first one of those two with the rectangular room oriented with the short side connected to the metal shop. I particularly like this idea for the simplicity of roof junctions, the open wall looking down into the metal shop limiting the number of windows/containment needed, and the amount of wall/ceiling space for additional windows. I recently saw a picture of a woodshop which had more windows than non-windows, and the way the light interacts with the space is incredible. That stark dichotomy of wanting as much natural light as possible for a woodworking shop and relative darkness for a metalworking shop affords an interesting design challenge. Because of the geometry of the metal shop and window space, a lot of the usable natural light will probably come in through the woodshop windows, and this maximises on that opportunity. It's a bit difficult to tell what's going on, but I'm not quite knowledgeable enough in CAD to get a 3D model going. The floor of the clean room is a few feet below the level of the metal shop in order to bring the ceiling of the wood shop above it down farther. I'm still on the fence of how high of a ceiling I want in all of these places, but everywhere I've ever been, people say they either love their high ceilings or wish theirs were higher. 15ft seems excessive for the clean room given the type of work being done there, so I took it down to 12 and 11 feet to see what it does to the angles. 12 is looking like the better option, but I probably don't even need that much. For the woodshop ceiling, I measured 8ft from the floor to the shortest point on the ceiling (intersection with the walls) which gives the above proportions. I'm yet to be determined on if I like that or not. Most likely, the top of the roof would remain in place and I would adjust where the floor is/ceiling of the clean room. For a length of 30ft (might expand to 40 to accommodate for sacrificing part of the clean room to a contained grinding room, part for utilities/bathroom/air compressor) an even spacing of 4 columns on the roof extensions/covered walkway gives reasonable space for moving about, introduction of doors, and storage. If I extend the extra 10ft, I'd probably only add 1 more column so it doesn't get too close together to be useful. Finally, here is a theoretical layout for supports on the ceiling tensile rafters. Symmetry was my biggest problem here, but I came up with a viable solution. Putting an upright post under each of the beam intersections, whichever of the 3 different joints it would be, the posts are spaced too closely together to be practical. Having every other one doesn't work because of the odd number of sides. So, I found the most ideal triangle of the three overlapping ones based on configuration of the door and location of the forge if it is against the north/east wall, and another triangle offset from the first by 120 degrees but placing the posts under the middle of the beams rather than under the intersections. That gives a hexagon of supports that are about 13,5ft apart, and at closest 10,5ft from the nearest wall (using the original scale of 18,5ft wall length). If the floor-to-beam height is 15ft, there is enough room to put branching supports from each of the posts to the critical joints nearby without sacrificing any working space. Any fewer than these 6 beams and it doesn't look like the additional supports would be effective. Any more, and there would be too much space absorbed by their proximity to one another. In any event, that's what I've come up with for now, but as previously mentioned, it's time to finalise what I am able to do on my own and begin consultation with the structural engineers to see if this is even workable...
  7. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Sorry for the delay, but thank you! You've added a considerable amount that I am much better off for having read. Due to extenuating computer circumstances, I haven't been able to get any additional screen captures over to the internet, but in the next few days I'm hoping to have a few additional considerations and scalings posted. I think the major design choices remaining mostly tailor towards how to adjoin the other rooms and approximate sizes, but I'll do a bit more drafting based on your previous info. Thanks again!
  8. John Page

    Moonlight Seax

    You might say that turned out well The steel is incredible, those twists are perfectly sized for the proportions and space. I love how there is a pseudo square-wave sort of tooth thing near the tip. Also the evenness of the bands of wrought is surprising with how much length you got out of the billet but without the none-too-sneaky mark of hydraulics. Nice touch with the stones, too, just the right amount of regality that doesn't uproot its humbleness. Cheers from the sandbox and thanks for sharing! John
  9. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Once again, really appreciate the info! That'll take a bit to fully digest, and I'm now seeing more and more of the secret wizardry done by structural engineers. The point loading is a substantial consideration, and I think that the radial translation of force out from the centre of the ceiling warrants investigation. Previously I was basing the design on the assumption that timbers connecting the walls across the top would be sufficient to mitigate the weight and loading of the roof, but now I'm not so sure. Thanks for the references, I'll do some perusing, and the approximate scale of timber helps immensely, especially knowing how substantial a difference there is between the solid wood and laminated alternative. I think I may be rapidly approaching the end of what I am able to design on my own
  10. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Wow, the weight of snow adds up fast!! From what I understand, the snow load roof pitch codes that I found are based on the angle of repose for snow, but I'm not sure if that means the snow load will shed after building up a certain amount or something else. A 6-3/4" x 9" beam doesn't sound too bad, although I presume that is for an unbroken cross-section along its entire length. Any introduction of joinery would surely change those dimensions, although based on some of the documentation I read about static structural loading for notched beams suggests that if it's small enough and in the right places, they can be negligible. Not that I'd want to make those assumptions anyway, but that beam size is entirely reasonable. More likely than not, I'll probably try and find lumber in the range of 6x12s or 8x10s based on final loading configurations. Also some configuration of hammer beam trusses would help brace a portion of the span nearer the walls, but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Thanks for all the info!!
  11. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Josh, great ideas into the mix! I hadn't thought about putting the forge in the centre- that would also make for an awesome natural draft with the height of the chimney. Would using a central column have any effect on the overall transverse stability of the walls? Done right, it would take most of the weight of the roof and translate to compressive forces on the chimney and the walls, but I'd imagine there would still need some sort of auxiliary support structure on the rafters. Running some additional numbers, an (arbitrarily sized) 5ft diameter stack would still have the nearest timber be 10,25 ft away at the current scale. The length of the above 'B' is 26ft for a centre-wall distance in the same plane, 31ft when looked at facing the building accounting for the pitch of the roof. 'A' is roughly 18,5 for the scaling. I have a few other constraint based scales that make each side length as short as 16,8ft. Browsing a few pictures of the Mt Hood Timberline lodge, that place is something special! There is a lot of deliberate design taken in the joinery and complementary material layout, thanks for mentioning it, I'll be borrowing a bit from the aesthetics going on there. I fiddled around with floor based supports, and the biggest problem I'm having is symmetry. Bracing equally on all intersections, the beams are extremely close together for convenience, but offsetting where they support gives two sets of three points, the distance between the post and wall still being about 10ft. Workable, but I think the truss/rail idea maximizes usable floorspace. The building not being rectangular makes the introduction of square/rectangular footprint benches/machines a bit more problematic when dividing space towards the centre. I have a few more drawings that I'll upload this afternoon that hopefully explain it a little better John
  12. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Great stuff, thanks Josh! Really appreciate the info. I ran some measurements with vertical supports, and I keep running into the floor space problem. From the walls to the support, the farthest distance I can get is about 10ft, which doesn't seem like that much when there are work benches and machinery taking up most of that space. The whole 40ft+ unsupported beam length is hefty, especially when there are notches and whatnot for the crossing interfaces. One solution I've been considering is using reinforcing plates on the top face (not visible from the ground) although that would only go so far. Another idea I'll be consulting on is the introduction of a hammer-beam type support that comes out from the walls to the weak points on the beams, although that too will be spanning a fair amount of distance. Having 15ft ceilings would alleviate the interference with head and machine space, but for the span and loading even that might not be enough. One solution I've come up with for increasing the distance between walls and supports is to simply make the building larger, but the increase in circumference needs a dramatic enlargement to have the desired effects. Going back to the gantry discussion, another possible means of rigidizing the transverse beams would be to use the rigidity of an I-beam or rail in key points, either above or below the beam, and anchoring them together. Seems like a sketchy solution though... While researching large floor plans without interior supports, I saw a few truss designs which rely mostly on ironwork as reinforcing joinery. While I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, the premise of timber framing or post-and-beam construction relies heavily on compressive strength rather than tensile strength. In principle, the type of loading these types of frames are built to withstand seem contrary to these large open spaces. Further investigation ensuing.
  13. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    For amplifying information, here's a side profile of the main shop and how the lower level clean room and upper level woodshop attach to it- The 11 and 12 foot ceiling height for the lower level is arbitrary, and I've moved in the direction of lowering the foundation of that space slightly to allow for a taller east wall height of the woodshop. Based on snow loading codes, the standard roof pitch for heavy loads is between 6:12 and 7:12, which comes out to 27~30 degrees .The above roof pitch is set at 30 degrees, but there is an excess of unused space there existing for the purpose of introducing ventilation and other air moving apparatus. The width of the above space is 18ft, although as mentioned in the previous post I've been developing alternatives for the adjoining rooms based on wood-stone interface and the problem of pitch angle for intersecting roofs. One alternative is having the wood shop come out of the metal shop so the short wall is touching rather than overlapping the long wall, which gives much greater freedom in roof angles at the expense of dividing the clean shop with a separate piece for the grinding room...
  14. John Page

    The Birth of a Workshop

    Glad to have you in the conversation Josh! The primary motivation for timber framing comes from a combination of historic construction, aesthetics, and intimacy in the building process. Those long beams over the main shop won't be supporting a second floor- they are there mainly to help distribute the weight of the roof into a tensile load. I've done a few scalings of the dimensions based on certain timber lengths, one of which limiting the maximum unsupported beam length. Depending on the viability of that construction and available timber sizes, I've thought about joining two smaller timbers with a lap joint and supporting the scarf with a vertical timber that runs from the floor to either the first layer of supports or all the way to the ceiling rafters to help distribute additional load. Out of curiosity, do you know any concerns or complications that come from the joining of the wooden sills to stone foundations? The horizontal ones seem easier, but I haven't been able to work out a good solution to vertical posts meeting masonry. Having a clean room that is mostly insulated by piled earth/a hillside relies on having three sides being not-wooden, but the junction between the foundation walls and the wooden walls of the adjoining workshop give me enough concern that I've started making a few sets of plans which have a normal exposed first story for the clean shop that continues the foundation of the hot shop in the same horizontal plane. While I'm not dead set on the hillside based construction, the primary reason for pursuing that is the availability of being able to drive up to a door in the wood shop for easy maneuvering of timber and machinery. Haven't gotten anything looked at by the engineers yet- there are a few geometric details I want to sort out first, but I'm probably a few weeks out from finalizing everything on my level and sending it off to be finalized/validated/professionally drafted. Cheers! John
  15. John Page

    Packhorse trip in Wyoming

    Took a vaguely similar trip through the mountains in New Mexico a number of years back. Seeing the trails brings back a particular feeling which I'm sure you know all too well! What a beautiful part of the country that is!