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Everything posted by timgunn

  1. The first question is probably "what does the motor rating plate tell you about the motor?" and the second is "what do you want it to do and how do you want to tell it to do it?" The motor rating plate should give you a bunch of values that need to go into group 2 of the programming. The values you are likely to have are 02-01, 02-03, 02-04, 02-05, 02-06. If the motor plate gives you any others in an obvious way, put them in. Otherwise leave the settings as the defaults. The default command source seems to be the keypad. If you have a speed control potentiometer (twiddly knob) on the front, set parameter 00-05 to "1" to enable speed control from it. It looks like it should run on the start and stop buttons on the keypad and should go to whatever speed the knob is set to. Once running, adjust the knob to adjust the speed. It looks like the default acceleration and deceleration times are 10 seconds, so there will be a lag if you turn the knob fast. The drive is environmentally protected to IP20: effectively fingerproof. It is not sealed against dust and metallic grinding dust WILL kill it very quickly unless you take steps to seal the drive. Bear this in mind when you first fire it up: do not get over-enthusiastic, start grinding and cause fireworks. The quickest anyone I know personally has killed a drive this way is around 2 minutes from first switching it on. You'll then need to decide how you are going to protect the drive and how you are going to control it in whatever protection you come up with (if it's in a box, you won't be able to get at its front panel). You can also decide on the speed range you want. Some of the remaining parameters will set the drive up for the speed range and command source you decide to use. Many of the others are there to interface with control processes in industrial automation and will not be needed for a grinder with a human operator. I mount IP20 drives in IP66 enclosures and fit a remote control box on a trailing lead with start and stop buttons, a keyed forward/reverse switch (the key is taken out when running a machine that should not be reversed) and a speed control potentiometer. The box has a 3-phase socket on the front so I can plug in different machines. It's usually as cheap to buy an IP66 drive to begin with, and is much less effort.
  2. It looks like the burner is choked down to me: The air holes are covered so there is not much air flow for the gas to burn with. Try changing absolutely nothing except the choke sleeve position: move it towards the forge and uncover more holes to get more air in. See what happens and let us know. If you can, take photos in the dark. The most useful shot is often one across the mouth of the forge to show how much Dragons Breath there is, and what colour it is: In daylight, the DB flame does not show particularly well and digital cameras tend to do strange things to the white balance so that the flame colour in the photo is not the actual colour. Taking a tight shot directly into a forge can be completely useless because the camera will adjust the colour and a real dull red will look in a photo just like a real bright orange in another photo.
  3. timgunn

    Heat Treat Foil

    Are 17-4 and 18-8 foils actually that much more readily available at .001"-.002" thicknesses and in knifemaker-type quantities? 321 is not all that far off being an 18-8 stainless: it's effectively 18-10 with up to 0.8% added Titanium, which apparently improves high-temperature stability. I think 321 was developed to counter cracking in aircraft engine exhausts. Neither 304 nor 316 are particularly recommended for high temperatures. 309 is higher in both Chromium and Nickel for use at higher temperatures. They get used because they are known to work reliably in their specific applications. "Someone" did some work to identify suitable materials for the tasks and that is what they came up with. Most folk seem to accept the consensus view and pony up for the proven product. Using 321 when heat-treating steels that "need" 309 has been known to fail and I'm pretty sure an evening spent searching the knifemaking forums will provide some insight into the sort of things that can go wrong: I'm pretty certain I've seen posts about the foil welding to the workpiece and to failure of the envelope allowing contact of the workpiece with air. If you have easy access to other grades of SS foil and can do some testing, I'd certainly love to see your results.
  4. The Auber stuff should be OK. I'd forget the element you linked to entirely. It is waaay too thin to last. I built my first 5 ovens using 16AWG (1.29mm diameter) elements wound from Kanthal A1. These were ok-ish: fine for occassional hobby use, but a couple of the guys who use them to put food on the table had element failures. I then went up to 1.6mm diameter Kanthal A1 and they seem to be lasting better. I got some of the Far-Eastern elements off ebay, just because they were so cheap that I had to check them out. They really are very thin indeed. They also appear to be continuously-wound and then cut from a roll. To get connection tails, you'd need to unwind some of the coil and twist it to make the tails. I've just dug one out and measured it at about 0.65mm diameter wire. My advice is to go no thinner than 16AWG, thicker if possible, and to use Kanthal A1 or equivalent. The price will, of course, be considerably higher than that of the thin ones on ebay.
  5. Give it a try and see if there is a problem. As you will have a regulator in the system already, a local shutoff valve and a needle valve to control the flow to the forge would probably get the job done.
  6. It will "probably" be fine, but with caveats. Inside the regulator, a plug moves in and out of a hole, controlling the amount of gas getting through. The plug is attached to a diaphragm and this works against a spring. The gas, downstream of the plug and hole, presses on the diaphragm and spring. As the pressure rises, the plug moves into the hole. As the pressure falls, the plug moves out of the hole. The steady state is where the pressure on the diaphragm balances against the pressure of the spring. Adjusting the spring preload adjusts the regulator pressure. The size of the plug and hole are important. These are fixed in your regulator. If your regulator is rated for use with, for example, 50 PSI upstream pressure and 5 PSI downstream pressure and will allow 5 lb/hr of Propane to flow at those pressures, the pressure available to drive the flow is 50-5=45 PSI. The regulator can control the flow to less than 5 lb/hr by moving the plug into the hole, but once the downstream pressure drops below 5PSIG and stays there, the regulator will be fully open and the size of the hole is what matters. If you now supply the regulator with 10 PSI gas instead, the pressure available to drive the flow is 10-5=5 PSI. Only 1/9th of the original pressure. Flow through an orifice varies as the square root of the pressure, so the maximum throughput the regulator could provide would be the square root of 1/9th: 1/3rd of the design flow or 1.67 lb/hr. The numbers I used were chosen because they are easy numbers. However, the vapor pressure of Propane at 30 degF, just below the freezing point of water, is 51 PSIG. At -20 degF, it is 11 PSI. Both are similar to my easy numbers. The effects of Propane cylinders "freezing" are well known/documented in smithing circles. Be aware that you may find yourself seeing identical symptoms to cylinder freezing as a result of using a, now too-small, regulator fed from a 10PSI supply.
  7. First question: what do you want to HT? If you are absolutely sure you are going to need Ramp/Soak, go for a Ramp/Soak controller. If you are unsure at this stage, go for a basic controller. You'll have a pretty steep learning curve ahead of you (unless you are already familiar with PID controllers. This seems unlikely because you are asking the question). NEVER buy a controller until you have downloaded the manual from a non-password-protected site, read it thoroughly and understood at least most of it. The reasoning is this: you have a steep learning curve ahead of you. If you need to ask for help on this, or another, forum, there are likely to be some folk with enough experience and knowledge of Process Control, and Controllers generally, to help you. However, they are unlikely to be intimately familiar with your specific controller. Being able to provide a link to the manual gives them a reasonable chance of being able to provide specific assistance. Some manufacturers put access to their manuals behind a login/signup page. I tend to give up at that point. Manuals are difficult and expensive things to write. A manual translated from Chinese into English by an online translation program is not likely to be very helpful. Pretty much the entire value of a controller lies in it being able to control your process. If the manual is not adequate to allow you to set it up to achieve this, the controller is worthless. Industrial controllers, particularly the ones with higher-end capabilities like ramp/soak, are intended for use by Process Engineers: people who understand both their process and controllers in general. Programming ramp/soak profiles is usually a pain in the neck. The ramp/soak programming is usually set at the same access level as the input type, P,I & D parameters, etc. They are not like the kiln controllers found on the big-name kilns, which are designed to be programmed by an end-user with no real interest in the finer details of process control. These have different access levels for the commissioning technician and the end-user, limiting the amount of damage that can be caused by an incorrect button press. Ideally, you want a controller with the capability to do what you need it to do, with a good manual, written by someone who writes manuals for a living, in your own language (though if Swedish is your mother tongue, your English certainly seems good enough that you could cope happily with a manual in English). Then you want "real" technical support in a time zone you can live with, also in a language you can communicate in. For me, it needs to be telephone support (ageing Luddite and one-finger typist) but YMMV. I seem to vaguely recall a few HT oven builds using the linked controller on different forums. If the manual is ok and available online, it might be a good choice. Alternatives, if you are set on ramp/soak, are the Auber Instruments SYL 2352P, which I have not used myself, but which seems to be highly regarded Stateside. Support is reportedly very good. My personal favourite is the Automation Direct Solo SL4848VR or the Omega CN7823. These are, as far as I can tell, the same controller with different badges and I buy whichever is cheapest at the time. I have used them on all but the first HT oven I built (7 out of 8 so far). Support from both suppliers is superb. Omega are about the biggest name in temperature control worldwide and their technical sales people are extremely knowledgable (and patient, IME): well worth a phone call if you are unsure about thermocouples, etc. If you can live without ramp/soak for the forseeable future, a simpler controller really could be a good plan. If you go for a 48mm x 48mm (1/16 DIN) controller format and leave enough length on the wires to reach a different terminal layout, upgrading to a ramp/soak controller later is simple.
  8. Auber seem to be highly regarded Stateside. They do not have a UK presence, so I have not used them myself. AutomationDirect and Omega are both very good and have knowledgeable support staff at the end of the phone (I'm a Luddite, but they are probably great online too). IME they are also remarkably patient. If you are going to talk to them, make sure you have all your settings noted down and try to appreciate that, whilst they do know their equipment, they do not know the specific process you are trying to control: it is up to you to tell them exactly what the controller needs to do. If you are not sure about your process, a call for help on the forums may be the better first step. You are likely to find someone who has done what you are trying to do and can get you up to the point where you know enough to have a productive conversation with tech support. My favourite controller for homebuilt HT ovens is the AutomationDirect Solo 4848VR or the Omega CN 7823 (same controller, different badges. I buy whichever works out cheapest at the time) with a DC output to drive an SSR and ramp/soak capability. Bear in mind that ramp/soak profile setting is always MUCH less user-friendly on industrial controllers than it is on the likes of Evenheat's and Paragon's HT ovens. For temperature control, you are likely to need a thermocouple. Omega are about the biggest supplier of thermocouples worldwide and it is well worth spending a few minutes with a notebook and a telephone picking their brains.
  9. 2”x4” felt too small for a face. With hindsight, I should have left it. I welded on a couple of offcuts from the tapered end to give about a 4” x 5” face, but welding it ruined the original tine HT. It seems really soft and the plan is to hard-face it as soon as I can source some suitable rods. I made a cutlers stiddy from another short piece of the tine and it seems to be usefully hard with the original HT. I think a tine the size of yours would make a pretty good post anvil if you don’t overheat it when cutting it.
  10. That's a decent size. Lots of folk I know have struggled with cutting forklift tines. I expected to struggle too, but used a 14" carbide-toothed portable cutoff saw (an Evolution Raptor) on my 2" x 4" tine and was absolutely stunned at how quick, clean and cool the cut was.
  11. The best advice I can give on PID controllers: Before you even consider buying one, DOWNLOAD and READ the MANUAL. If you cannot find it to download, do not buy the controller. If you cannot understand (at least most of) the manual, do not buy the controller. Good manuals are expensive things to do well. If you are not already familiar with process controllers, trying to set one up without a good manual will give you migraine. If/when you run into difficulties, it is nice to be able to ask for help on this, or another, forum. You will probably want help from someone who is familiar with controllers in general, but who may not be familiar with the particular model/variant you have. To help, they will need access to the manual. You really need to be able to put a link to said manual in any "Help!" posting.
  12. It looks more like Kaowool board in the photo than IFB. Try shaving a thin slice off it with a sharp knife. You'll either get something that crumbles to dust (IFB), or you'll get something that looks like kaowool fibers (kaowool board). Either way you'll know. And you'll have a blunt knife.
  13. If you can bore for bushings, that is almost certainly the cheapest, easiest way to do things. They are available in several materials and different wall thicknesses for much less than the cost of bronze bearing stock. https://www.grainger.com/category/sleeve-bearings/sleeve-and-clip-bearings/bearings/power-transmission/ecatalog/N-171c#nav=%2Fcategory%2Fsleeve-bearings%2Fsleeve-and-clip-bearings%2Fbearings%2Fpower-transmission%2Fecatalog%2FN-171cZ1z0o05eZ1z0o42g Using sleeve-bearing pillow blocks should be ok, but I'd be more inclined to use Cast Iron housings, rather than pressed steel, and arrange them so that the housing is loaded in compression whilst in use: CI is generally considered strong in compression and weak in tension.
  14. Not nearly enough information. The gas jet size is dependent on a huge range of factors, most of which will be highly specific to your burner. I assume the burner is Naturally Aspirated, not blown. The high-speed gas emerging from the jet is what causes the low pressure at the burner throat and draws the air in. Going smaller on the gas jet will lean off the mixture (make it less reducing/more Oxidizing). Going bigger will richen the mixture (make it more reducing/less Oxidizing). Different tasks are best undertaken with different air:fuel ratios. The maximum flame temperature occurs at the stoichiometric mixture; the air:fuel ratio at which all of the fuel burns with all of the Oxygen in the air, leaving neither unburned Oxygen nor unburned gas. This ratio tends to give rise to quite heavy scaling. We therefore tend to run richer mixtures and consequently lower flame temperatures. We usually size the jet to give the richest mixture consistent with achieving the required temperature. For a given burner design and task, there will be an optimum jet size, but this will be dependent on the ease with which the air can be entrained. The harder it is for the air to get in, the smaller the jet needs to be. Tiny details like radiussing the edges of the air intake cane have a noticeable effect Unless you have an established burner design for which the work has already been done, you will need to do it yourself. You have done some of it, since you have determined that a .035” mig tip is too small and a .045” is too big. Mig tips tend to have holes about .006” larger than the wire diameter for which they are sized, so your required orifice size is likely to be in the range .040” to .052”. In your position, I would equip myself with some .035” mig tips, a pinvice and an assortment of drills for a day of tuning. Mig tips are soft Copper and a pig to drill, but I managed ok going one number drill size at a time drilling by hand with the drill held in the pinvice and the pinvice spun between my fingertips. When I did this with 1” burners, I was starting with a .023” mig tip so the drills were small. Starting at .040” or 1mm, you may be able to use a battery drill and make things easy. Start too small. Open out the hole in small steps until it is too big, testing each time. Drill a fresh tip out to the best size you found and fit it. It’s not difficult to do, just time-consuming. 1 1/4 burners? Plural? Hells teeth that’s huge. Gas consumption is likely to be high enough that a burner based on a commercial/industrial Venturi mixer would pay for itself pretty quickly. I would seriously consider an Amal atmospheric injector. The ones jetted for low-pressure Butane work extremely well when run on high-pressure Propane in gas forges (I use a 0-60 PSI regulator).The Amal units are made by Burlen in the UK and use European pipe threads, a minor pain for those over the pond. I would expect there to be a US manufacturer of something very similar, but I don’t know of one personally.
  15. I'm British, so buying American is not a consideration for me. The DF-series burners are as good as any of the DIY burner designs I've seen and very much better than most. I usually use burners based on a commercial Venturi mixer. Out of curiosity, I bought a DFP to play with and was very impressed. The Blacksmithing boys don't seem to rate them particularly highly, but I don't think they need the adjustability that comes with the screwed choke adjustment. The screwed choke gives exceptionally fine control over the flame temperature and forge atmosphere (they are intimately linked). For Heat-Treating, the precision with which the forge temperature can be set and held is a game-changer. Over here, O1 is easy to obtain and most other blade steels are a pain to source. Having the temperature control that the screwed choke provides (think micrometer-adjustment), means that soak-time ceases to be an issue and O1 becomes a beginner steel. The caveat is that the forge needs to be designed with HT in mind: the burner is not a magic bullet. The DF -Prof series have a sliding choke and I see this as a significant downgrade, despite the higher pricetag. I have not tried one though.
  16. Assuming it's the SYL2352P controller you have, the wiring looks pretty simple: Terminal 4 to thermocouple + Terminal 5 to thermocouple - Terminal 7 to SSR + Terminal 8 to SSR - Terminals 9 and 10 to AC power In the unlikely event you want to use alarms: Terminal 13 to alarm common supply Terminal 1 to alarm indicator/sounder, etc 1 Terminal 14 to alarm indicator/sounder, etc 2 I am assuming you have not downloaded and printed the 11-page manual for the SYL2352P from the link at the bottom of the SYL23X2P page on Auberins site, and given it to your electrician, because it looks very clear to me. If your electrician has seen it and does not understand it, it might be wise to look for another electrician for this project. I know several electricians. Some are superb on domestic wiring but have no idea about industrial and control wiring. Others are superb on plant, machinery and instrumentation, but no good at all with domestic wiring. Surprisingly few are good at both. If I was a gambling man, I'd bet a fiver that you have one of the former.
  17. I'll be interested to see how you get on with this. What seems to be stopping the Venturi burners from reaching temperature? The most common reason for it that I've seen is effectively too big a gas jet for the burner. The second most common is not enough burner for the forge. If you have Dragons Breath and you are not reaching temperature, a (slightly) smaller gas jet is very likely to improve matters.
  18. The correct spelling is "Fluorspar". Also search for "Fluorite" and "Calcium Fluoride". I can find it in "our" sort of quantities as "Calcium Fluoride/ Fluorspar-acid grade" from Mistral Chemicals over here. That big wet patch probably rules it out for you though. Pottery suppliers might carry it, though it looks like it's a major PITA to use in glazes.
  19. The technical term for the fans Owen is describing is "bifurcated" (bif). They are usually "Bifurcated Axial" fans (bifa). It might help you find some details and pricing.
  20. Thermocouple in the forge as Alan says. It works in the forge. A magnet needs to be used out of the forge. Back before IR thermometers became available, there used to be an optical hot-wire pyrometer that used an electrically-heated Platinum wire. The operator held the instrument with the wire between the object to be measured and his eye then adjusted the current in the wire until it became invisible against the background. He then read the temperature of the wire, which would be the same as that of the background object. The thermocouple is used in a similar way. Jonas, what type of burners are you using? Can you get that forge to burn down at 800 degC? If so, can you get the temperature reasonably even throughout the forge at 800 degC? If it'll do what you need it to do, that's wonderful. I'd love to see some more detail so that I, and others, can learn from it.
  21. Thank you Alan. The rich mixture tends to help minimize scaling and I think it probably helps to minimize decarb too: Carbon soot from the incomplete Propane combustion gets deposited on the steel surface. It's difficult to envisage a mechanism that would burn Carbon out of the steel without taking the soot, though it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one. Over here, O1 is a doddle to get hold of in beginner bladesmith quantities, but most other blade steels are not. Like 52100, O1 does best with a long soak so I wanted to come up with a setup that would let a beginner get decent results with a reasonably low entry cost. The same burner can also be used in a small conventional forge, where it can even (comfortably) achieve welding temperatures. This helps to keep the total startup cost down.
  22. Using a muffle pipe tends to reduce the temperature variation. It is a useful method for getting a more even temperature from an existing forge, given that most "normal" forges are not built with Heat-Treating in mind. However, it is also possible to design/build a forge and burner combination to give precise temperature control with minimal temperature variation, specifically for HT. There are a number of HT-dedicated drum forges around, to a design usually credited to Don Fogg and originally intended for HT of swords. These use a single, relatively small, burner to heat a 55-gallon drum, lined with 1" of Kaowool. Temperature measurement is usually by thermocouple and handheld readout, with manual burner adjustment to get to the desired temperature. Because the temperature is so low, the gas usage is much lower than would be the case with a similar-sized "normal" forge and temperature stability is very close to that achievable with an electric HT oven. Build cost is low. Alternatively, a small pilot burner can be used with the temperature controlled by using a thermocouple and PID controller to switch a solenoid valve on the main burner feed. It's a good modification for the geeky types who enjoy playing with control stuff, or for the frequent user who will recover the additional build time involved by not needing to make the manual adjustments each time the forge is fired up. The Don Fogg design is technically very elegant and is just about optimized: other than the PID control, every "improvement" I have heard suggested would actually be detrimental to its performance (IMO/E). The only major downside to the design is the size and it does not seem readily scalable downwards to make a knives-only forge. A search for "Don Fogg heat treat drum" should bring up a good few hits. I spent some time trying to make something smaller that would work for knives-only. I think I probably did ok-ish. There are 2 or 3 guys who have used my HT forges to make knives to sell while they gather the money to upgrade to an electric HT oven. There's a youtube video one of my test-pilots made at: The target temperature of 816 degC is 1500 degF. The clever bit of this setup is the commercially-made gas mixer (so nothing I can claim any credit for), which allows very fine control of the air:fuel mixture and therefore the temperature. The mixer used in this case is an Amal 354/12BLV http://amalcarb.co.uk/downloadfiles/amal/amal_gas_injectors.pdf These are available from the manufacturer http://amalcarb.co.uk/amal-gas-injectors/butane-injectors.html In a "normal" forge, the flame retention cup is not usually needed, but I do use one in the HT forge. That way I can light the burner then insert it into the forge, eliminating the possibility of filling a big chamber with a gas/air mixture and then igniting it. The forge is a length of 10" thinwall pipe with 1" of ceramic fibre blanket inside and the ends cut from 1" ceramic fibre board and lightly hand-pressed in (to allow the ends to blow out if I am careless enough to fill the chamber with the aforementioned gas/air mixture and ignite it). The Don Fogg design has the burner at the bottom and the workpiece/exhaust port at the top. I just couldn't get the temperature distribution even with this arrangement. Once I tried the burner at the top and the workpiece/exhaust port at the bottom, things got a whole lot better.
  23. Jerrod's suggestion looks good. The way I read it, the input resistance is sufficient to draw no more than 10 mA at 10V (so presumably at least 1000 Ohms). The unit Jerrod linked to seems to give a 1-10V output at up to 30 mA. The important thing is that it is a Voltage output. Something which gave a 0-20 mA current output instead (another common control signal) probably would not work. I can't see anything similar available over here, so left to my own devices, I think I'd probably do it using a 10V power supply and a potentiometer. Connect the supply across the ends of the potentiometer and connect the +10V end to the "high" pin. Connect the wiper to the "low" pin. Adjusting the potentiometer will then adjust the speed. When the wiper is near the +10V end, speed will be low. When it is near the 0V end of the potentiometer, speed will be high.
  24. It should eat the job. The curves look excellent. If I'm reading things correctly, the 116630 has variable-speed capability, taking a 0-10V speed signal, and should be very easy to tune to match the actual duty required. I've never even seen any of the windjammer series in the flesh, though I've used Ametek Rotron Side-channel blowers in the past and found them very good. I used them on Landfill gas systems and the units I used were much bigger than we would typically use for forges/smelting. They were very well-engineered and I'd have no qualms about using Ametek products based on that experience.
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