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Kenon Rain.

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Posts posted by Kenon Rain.

  1. Well I got it finally, and weighed it. 200lb, have it pictures next to my friends 75lb nc farrier for scale. Really a beautiful anvil. Going to cut a solid oak log trapezoidal for a base and router out for the feet. Use some horse mat or something and bolt it all together 

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    • Like 4
  2. Hahaha that it is. Probably rings like a bell. I don't plan on grinding her at all, always viewed that as the best way to ruin an anvil, I will take a scotchbrite disk to it however, these have a very light touch and it would be work to remove .001 from the face even, but they do a good job of cleaning and knocking burs and crap down. Brush the rest, the horse mat caulk chain and magnet and soundproof the shop wear two pairs of ear muffs and I should be good. :) Didnt know about the caulk trick that's interesting. It doesn't cure in thick chunks because it reacts with water to set, but forms a skin. I suppose it doesn't matter for the application though. And I can always make a huge mess and goop it all into a bucket and mix some water in to get it cookin.

  3. Thanks for all the help! I'm pretty stoked. Grateful it's unmolested too, and has had a cool history in a ship yard on the California coast for the last century. I like the big horn and lack of saddle too. Never really used the saddle on my old one anyway. 

     

    Does that mean the horn is wrought?

  4. Haha are you able to pin it to that exact year? All I know is a 1 in the front means ballpark between 1892 and 1916. So, 1908 being in the middle of that range it could be either style of construction that's as far as I got. Looking at it I can't tell either. I can see two grain structures joined at the truck about half way up. But idk if there is a plate or not. Probably going to run it through an electrolysis bath which will clean it up gently and tell me more.

     

    In that picture with the logo on the side, it almost looks like a plate joint above it but I'm not sold.. that's the only spot like that.

  5. Well, this is interesting. It's actually a hay Budden. He took a wire brush to the side, it's hard to make out but he says he can see hay buden New York, and 200lb. Still in good shape. We're they always bimetal construction or did they switch to cast at some point? Doesn't matter mich, I won't abuse it but curious.

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  6. Hey guys, anyone have a clue what I'm looking at here? I don't have it yet, but was bought for 200$ from a boatyard. Has what seems like a really big horn, almost looks like a Peter wright but I can't see a lamination line. My dad who found it estimates it at 250lb which isn't far off looking at the size. No cracks or dents, really good shape.

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    • Like 1
  7. 4 hours ago, timgunn said:

    The best hydraulic system I have ever seen for a limited-power forging press is the Anyang design, which uses a swash-plate pump with variable displacement. At low pressure, the pump is at full stroke and the ram moves fast. As the resistance increases, the pump stroke decreases, the ram speed decreases and the pressure developed increases. This means that the system is able to use the full power of the motor throughout the cycle.

     

    I think the 25-tonne Anyang press uses a motor that is either 4 HP (3 kW) or 4 kW. It is pretty impressive and I get the feeling it probably out-performs most 10 HP presses and many 15 HP forging presses (though I have to confess to pathetically little actual forging experience myself).

     

     

    All of the fixed-displacement-pump systems that I have seen move at a fixed speed and only use a fraction of the available motor power until the resistance is very close to maximum.

     

    2HP is pitifully little power for a forging press.

     

    I would be looking for ways to increase the available power, rather than trying to build something that will work poorly, at best, on the power that you already have available. If a bigger electrical supply is out of the question, could you use a gas- or diesel-engined power pack for instance? 

     

    Work is Force times Distance. Power is work per unit time. I struggle a little with US units, so we'll convert to units I understand.

     

    I think a US ton is 2000 Lb (as opposed to the 2240 Lb of the British ton or the 1000 kg of the Metric Tonne) 16 US tons is therefore 32000 Lb

     

    32000 Lb is 14,545 kg and each kg of mass exerts a downward force of 9.8 Newtons at the surface of the Earth.

     

    32000 lb (force) is therefore (14545 x 9.8) = 142545 Newtons

     

    2 HP is 1500 Watts (as close as makes no difference).

     

    Power(Watts) is Work done(Joules) per unit time(seconds), so 2 HP(1500 Watts) is 1500 Joules/second.

     

    Distance is Work/force, so the distance over which 2 HP can exert 16 tons of force in one second is 1500/142545N = 0.0105 metres.

     

    That gives a speed of 10.5 mm/sec for a 16-ton ram driven by a PERFECTLY EFFICIENT system: about 0.4 inches/second.

     

    Perfectly efficient is unattainable.

     

    It's over 30 years since I played with Hydraulics as part of my job, but I don't ever recall them being particularly efficient. Even allowing for 30 years of development, I don't think there would be much chance of exceeding 1/4" per second with a real-world 2HP, 16-ton system.

     

    Hydraulics are usually used because they offer a convenient way to achieve a numerically large mechanical advantage.

     

    Levers are usually very efficient compared to Hydraulics, but trying to combine the two seems like adding a lot of complication. If you want to be able to keep the stroke short with different thicknesses of workpiece, you could use adjustable limit switches to limit the return stroke or, if you are using a very basic power pack with just a relief valve, threaded adjustable stops on the return stroke. 

     

     

    That was really informative thank you, the issue I have is that the shop that I will be using for the foreseeable future it would be a really difficult to get to 220 otherwise that would make much more sense so that I could run other equipment as well. I am interested in seeing if there is any way to make something usable on 110 for our purposes, because I know a lot of people are limited in power like I am currently. The coal ironworks 16 ton press is 110 and seems to serve its purpose pretty well. I know that more pressure is more useful. I suppose I could just build a 220 5 horse and run a generator for the time being. I do have an older log splitter style hydraulic press that runs on a 13 horse Briggs and Stratton but it is extremely loud and annoying to have to start each forging cycle

  8. ok all, I ran some numbers to the best of my ability. And if I build something with this frame basically, and knock it down to 25 tons,

    with 5" of ram travel @ 10tons of force, 20" away from the fulcrum, on the other side I will have 2" of travel 8" from the fulcrum. That is enough I think, because I will basically build the bottom die section to take stackable spacers of so I can increase the gap for tooling, or close it up for drawing

     

    this is very similar to the frame I would build. just get parts cut from 1" pl so Its as strong as possible.

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_436253_436253

    9 hours ago, Sam Salvati said:

    I scored one of those northern tool ironworkers brand new for free

     

    Thats awesome. what are the specs on the ram that's on it? and maybe the pump too.

  9. wow, check this out. these are the stats for that machine I linked.

     

    Working Pressure (PSI): 2,500, HP: 3/4, Metal Shear: Yes, Volts: 115, Dimensions L x W x H (in.): 30 x 24 x 55 1/4, Bending Brake: No, Slip Roller: No, Amps: 20, Max. Depth (in.): 3 3/4

     

     

    so its generating 40 tons off a 3/4 hp motor on 115v.  that is pretty crazy. and I think there is potential for a redesign for something that would function for our uses.

     

  10. 15 minutes ago, Geoff Keyes said:

    Speed would be an issue with what I was seeing, but that might just be ram size and pump speed in the video.  When I built my press I wanted speed and a large throat   I don't know enough about mechanical advantage designs to comment, but I have never seen one used as a forging press.  I know that knuckle presses are used in short throw/ high tonnage applications like coining presses, but again, that is the limit of my knowledge.

     

    I'll be interested to see where you take this,

     

    Geoff 

     

     

    I'll probably just build a straight hydraulic press, but it does seem like you could build something with a mechanical advantage. maybe something with a lower die that you could raise up to the height of the work you are doing so that the stroke can be faster shorter and stronger with less wasted travel.

     

    That actually would be pretty sweet. I don't know enough about engineering something with these forces to get the tonnage and speed I want, so it would be an overbuild and guess and check w basic math proccess. but ill draw something up on the pc to kind of show what I am thinking of when I get a chance tomorrow morning. I have a friend who is a master of solidworks and running mechanical simulations so maybe I could get his help.

     

    simpleton that I am, if that machine I linked generates 40tons of power at the punch, it seems like I could move it out on the arms to where there is roughly 20 tons of force and get twice as much travel and/or speed. I could of course be oversimplifying but it could be interesting.

     

    the goal here above all is to get 16tons of force or more which I think is the minimum for forging out of a 110v 2hp motor.

  11. There would be no retrofitting. I'd just build something mechanically similar. I'm an experienced fab guy.

     

    What do you mean by limited by throat depth? If you're talking about an actual ironworker, I've used them and the punch section would work well for hot forging, but they are prohibitively expensive and usually three phase.

  12. Hey all, I'm going to build a press. for the time being I am limited to 110v for power, so its going to need to be designed around that. I've seen and like the coal ironworks 16ton press and want to build something similar. I am a fabricator w access to equiptment and steel so the build part will be easy. I want to over build it so that I can upgrade it later into a heavier tonnage if i decide to.

     

    my question is how the hell do I figure out what pump/ram combo will run alright on a 2hp 110 motor??

     

    I think maybe running a 1750rpm motor w an 11gpm dual stage pump basically at half speed with a 4" ram would get me in the ball park but thats my best idea.

    In the future ill swap to a big motor and probably run a single stage pump so im pretty much just going to build the frame heavy and use it until then.

     

    on a related note, is there any advantage to be gained by building something with a mechanical advantage like an ironworker? you could use a faster weaker ram, but im not sure the gains in tonnage would be washed out by the lack of speed. This example below is interesting, I would design it a bit differently, but the punch section is basically a press, and they are calling out 40tons of pressure generated there. If it were moved out towards the ram a bit pressure would drop but speed and travel would gain. 20 tons would be sufficcient.

     

    just a thought. 

     

    thanks all

     


     

  13. 1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

    Why couldn't you take a single angle iron and mount it to a square bar so it forms a T. Then slide the square bar through a square tube welded to the base. Put the set screw in the square tube. Have the angle stick up past the top of the lower die and parallel to the die holder. This would form a flat guide to push the blade against at a set distance from the fuller dies.

    I can draw a picture if that doesn't make sense.

     

    You could, I just liked how simple this was. I wanted to keep the tool compact for the anvil face and incorporating the post made it an efficient design. And it works good/quick to adjust.

  14. 5 hours ago, Brian Dougherty said:

    Yep.  I'm going to have to steal that tool design.

     

    Go right ahead :) the backstop is the only thing I might change in a redesign. It would be nice to have two points of contact with the blade. Right now you basically butt it up to the backstop and eye parallel off the face of the tool and whack to establish the groove. It works good but is a little more reliant on carefuness. And it was a very simple guide to build two points of contact would require a redesign. As you rotate it on the shaft the gap grows. 

     

    Actually now that I think about it, you could put on two guides like mine but cut the flat bar into an L shape, point the upper L leg down and the bottom one up so they overlap then you could put them on either side of the shaft and have two parrallel points of contact by rotating them towards and apart from each other in relation to the center of the dies. 

     

    I'll draw it If that wasnt clear. Maybe I'll make a thread for the tool.

     

    3 hours ago, Emiliano Carrillo said:

    Before you get into finishing I would suggest forging the nakago/tang further down to make it more in line with the curvature of the blade. Even tachi with extremely curved tangs have a step down where the mune meets the nakago mune, where the habaki sits. You can still have a funagata style nakago after that, but the step down from the mune is necessary for a working blade. 

     

     

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    Emiliano you are absolutely correct and I appreciate the input and example.

     

    The blade as shown is rough forged, I'll dial it in a little more before grinding. I can get a little more width out of it too I think. 

     

    How far should the fuller run down the nakago do you think? I know they dont go all the way. And I know the habaki needs to be able to slide home and fit the groove on the blade itself, so I'm assuming it goes a ways, and then the nakago's taper makes the fuller transition away. 

     

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