JohnCenter

I am happy I asked the question! The replies are overwhelming and informative.

On 3/14/2022 at 3:29 PM, Alan Longmire said:

 

Not Joshua, but my answer would be don't use O-1 or any other not-easily-annealed steel. That includes 5160, all stainless, and pretty much anything that's not a straight carbon steel, 15n20 excepted.  

 

1075 would be perfect for this.  The HT service will return you a hardened blade, you then dunk said blade in a can of water and heat the end of the tang you want to peen with a common propane torch until it glows red.  Walk away and let it cool to room temperature.  Done.  

15n20 would work? What about 80CRV2? Would it fall in the same category as the 10XX steels in ease of annealing?

I tried the torch on a scraped blade of O1 and had some success. It peened over with patience, but the edges of the mushroom cracked. I'm going to grind it off and try again and see if I get the same results.

On 3/14/2022 at 9:18 PM, Joshua States said:

What Alan said. Stick with the 10XX series of steels, excepting maybe 1095 because it can be a little finicky.

Another option is to invest in a decent silver or brass brazing torch. Learning how to braze a softer metal onto the tang so you can add a pommel cap with a peened block or tang will allow you to do this and up your game in the handle making arena.

Up my game? Are there other advantages to brazing soft metal onto the tang then easy peening? What would they be? Isn't it a weaker link in the handle?

Another beginner question brought up by my other thread.

I am curious what is the general consensus on the use and limits of handles being glued on? No pins or any other mechanical bonding.

I have seen the method used for small hidden tang knives but also to my surprise big choppers (leukus and seaxs). As a beginner what do I need to know to make sure I use this method correctly so that knives do not fail in use?

Thank you everyone for the followup advice.

Alan, I will try your method and report back.

Joshua- I'll just be blunt and ask politely from those who know more than me- Can you please explain how a beginner using stock removal method and sending out for heat treat should go about producing a blade that can be peened?

It has been a long time since I posted, but I've continued to dabble in knifemaking with some success. But only 3 piece sandwich style knives. I hope no one minds me bumping my own thread, but I still have an interest in trying a Nordic style knife and wanted to revisit this topic.

What I understand from looking back is that O1 is not eaisly annealed once hardened but I may be able to anneal the end of the tang enough to peen? (Gerhard had no success)

Brazing is not an option for me at the moment, but I would like to try Alan's advice on the tang of a scraped knife. It is O1 hardened to 59-60. So are these the correct steps: I  protect majority of knife and use a common propane torch to heat the last 1/2" or so to red and let air cool. Do I repeat the heating and cooling, or is once enough? After that I tap lightly with hammer for a long time? It's this simple?

Am I being to optimistic in my revisiting this thread? Am I wasting my time?

Thank you.

Thank you. I would never have guessed that was  mustard finish.

Any general guidelines or advice for skeletoning a full tang knife so lightening is achieved without compromising strength?

Such as leaving minimum amount of metal between holes or along the edges (ex. ~1/4")?

Very informative.

I know there is a list on Bladeforums of woods that can be used unstabilized,  but it is long and somewhat confusing and I found it does not really answer the question very clearly. This thread has really given me a much better understanding.

So typical woods I have seen used unstabilized that are not magical (eg. ironwood): Birch, hickory, and maple,.

Any others?

Thank you for the responses. Both your concerns are exactly mine. I already had doubts. I guess I will go with the more logical approach of drilling blind holes for the stop pin to achieve the same affect, but with the expected strength.

Wasn't sure what to call this thread....

Basically, I am thinking of making a few 'puukko and/or maasepan' inspired knives. In doing some research it seems the majority of knives made across the sea use unstablized birch (please correct me if I am wrong). The maasepan knives use a block of wood with blade nailed in, while others use the block between various other materials with peened tang. Even Enzo's are sold with unstabilized birch scales.

This leads me to believe that unstabilized wood is not as 'bad' and 'shifty' as North American culture would have one believe. It seems that in NA knife culture I often read statements like  'must use stabilized wood'  because 'why would you give your customer any less?!'

Also, the over seas makers make knives for use in varying climates and I presume if there were real world issues (such as cracking, shifting, expanding, shrinking, etc.) they would stop using unstablized wood.... yet over here the verdict appears to be different...?

Please help me to better understand what appears to be conflicting information on the suitability of wood for handles...

That file looks about right. I paid twice the price... but that's Canada for you!

I stated with a 10" course bastard from the hardware store (Nicholson). It worked, but took a long time. I then upgraded to a 14" course bastard I ordered off Amazon. Also a Nicholson. Not only is it longer, but also a a lot wider. It  easily removes twice as much as the 10" per stroke. Tempting to go longer, but with the size of the jig I made, I would not. I think 14" is a as long as I can get and still be able to get a good full stroke. So keep in mind the size of your jig as you look at longer files.

Also, Nicholson receive a lot of critism on the net. I have not had issues. They are significantly cheaper than the other file brands and mine all remove metal. I'm not saying the people with more experience and better files are wrong- I'm just saying as a beginner they are adequate. Especially until you decide if you want to stick with the hobby.

For those with more experience: Can a 1/8" micarta rod perform as the stop pin for a small friction folder (1/8" blade with 1/8" micarta handle slabs)? Will it stand up to the 'wear and tear'?

Very informative. Thank you.

Gerhard reminds me of something I read on another forum: The blade might not be getting to hot, but the thinner edge could be heating and cooling faster than the worker is aware...?

But what about Scandsi? I've seen countless videos of makers finish grinding them to sharpness as well as sharpening them on belt grinders...

As a beginner I don't know... I just question and ignorantly speculate. It seems final grinding after heat treat is the standard, so maybe that speaks louder than 'theory'...?

Recently added a 2x42 grinder to my shop. Only has one speed (fast). But it is amazing at cleaning and shaping the blades after heat treat (compared to sand paper and muscle!).

Any tips or advice for post heat treat grinding (O1 if it matters) to be sure not to ruin temper?

Right now I figure steel changing color: really bad. And I grind with bare hands and never let the steel get too hot to hold.

Glad my question wasn't as OCD as I'd imagined!

Also, Ive gained some great tips in the process.

Me too. That's what I do.

But I've read Stacy on BF saying he cuts out the inside of his scales and Nick Wheeler has a few tutorials where he drills shallow dimples into the scales to give room for the glue. Got me thinking- how does that work with liners? 

Liners to scale is just glued (and starved), but then after drill shallow through both, glue to tang... and problem solved?

I don't know. Probably over thinking, but wanted to throw the question out there.

Congratulations! You're living the dream now!

I may be over thinking this, but I was reading about how a Maker should inlet or dimple the centers of the handle scales on full tang knives to create room for epoxy. This way it is not a glue starved between the tang and scale.

But what about when using liners? Do you inlet/dimple scales, affix liner, then re-dimple/inlet again after liner has cured to scale?

what is the process?

Thanks. Yes, you are clear.

Really appreciate the followup everyone. I'm really leanring a lot. 

Luckily, where I'm at now is not so despaired as before. Out of the four blades, one of the sabre ground's edges was between 0.020-0.030". The 0.030" was mostly up at the tip, so this made for a small surface area to grind down. So I threw the 0.40" edged one in a dark corner and started over. Went down from 100 grit paper to 80 and this thinner blade evened out pretty good. By the time i polished it back up to 220 i was averaging 0.20" along the edge. I didn't take very long or much effort. Nothing compared to trying to break down a solid 0.020" on the other one! Then my Lansky with course diamond put a 25 inclusive on it while i watched tv. and now the blade shaves! 

I made a knife. I'lm quite happy right now!

i think a combination of a thinner more consistent bevel and  starting at 80 grit vs 100 made a big difference in work.

I had already send out a second batch to be heat treated (I'm enthusiastic, to say the least) and am now thanking the gods that i took the time to put clean 220grit bevels on them with a final edge consistently at 0.020" thick.  My hand filing had already improved a lot by the time i was working on these versus my first batch.

Thank you everyone for clearing so much up. At least for now 0.020" is doable, seems to survive heat treat so far, and allows me to finish up the knife with paper relatively easily.

So do these stats make a decent little bushcraft knife? Or should I try to aim for a thinner primary bevel and a smaller inclusive secondary bevel? Please share your opinions. Or is it also personal and experiential?

Funny, I measured the edge of a ESEE Izula I have and the primary bevel (flat gound) was roughly 0.030" and the secondary edge looked to be about 25 degrees inclusive. i was surprised to say the least. 

Actually one more question- Since I'm going to pick up the exra course stone, hwo deep of scratches is it going to leave? Will I be able to continue with sandpaper after? Or do I need another grit of stone before I can move to paper?

60RC. They came back at 59RC.

Alan, sonin line with your advice, would it be wise to purchase a DMT Extra course (4" or 6") stone? I'm thinking I could hook it up to my file jig and to start regrinding the bevel thinner.

And, last question, my next batch should go out at 0.020" or even 0.015", right? Then I can polish them and simply grind on the primary bevel with my Lanky kit... right? Avoid my current nightmare repeating!

I apologize if this is getting repetitive. But I want to be clear on how to move forward and not repeat the same mistakes. Hand filing is my only option for now and I want to continue making knives.