jake cleland Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 what would be the fastest non-commercial oil quenchant? i'm looking for something fast enough to get a hamon on 1086M/1095/W2. i've only got good results from these steels in water, but i want something that doesn't produce sori, and reduces the risk of cracking, so i can do seaxes and straight double edged pieces with hamons. i'd love to get some parks 50 or equivalent but have had no luck finding any in this country. are there any recipies for speeding up an oil quench? Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg H. Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I'm fairly new, so this is just a shot in the dark, but what about using cold diesel or kerosene? Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Vaught Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I'm fairly new, so this is just a shot in the dark, but what about using cold diesel or kerosene? I'd check the flash point on them first. Don't know about quench speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Anderson Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Jake, I've heard of mixing peanut oil with bio diesel (or regular for that matter). I don't know how well it would work...but it might be something for you to look farther into. Pretty thin stuff. Cris Slow is smooth, smooth is steady, steady is fast, fast is deadly... Erik R. http://www.facebook.com/scorpionforge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I've thought about that myself. A quick look-see into the back of Dr. Hrisoulas' "The Master Bladesmith" gives two recipes for light, fast quench oils to use with water-hardening steels. #1: 1 part Diesel fuel, 2 parts automatic transmission fluid, 1 part motor oil. #2: 1 part Diesel, 1 part transmission fluid, 2 parts motor oil. I'd think that subbing out canola oil for the motor oil would speed it up even more. I have not used these formulas, so I don't know how good they are. I have used 3 parts peanut oil and one part kerosene/parafin oil. Darned fast oil and spectacularly flammable! Plus it stinks. I'd play with a biodiesel base and use veggie oils to slow it enough to be less of a fire hazard if I wanted to go that route. All of these homebrews will break down far faster than commercial quench oils, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 My quench oil is one of those mixes ,it aint as fast as is needed for Good Hamon . Jake if you wanted to share the cost of importing Park 50 then I would go halves on some,I Have some where some uk adresses of h/t oil manufacturers and I'll dig em up .I think it's about time to get somthing proper . forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Kobayashi Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) 1 Edited March 29, 2011 by Robert Kobayashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bower Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) How about gasoline?! Sorry, I couldn't resist. As long as we're thinking about stuffing orange hot steel into highly flammable liquids, someone had to bring up gas. Edited December 4, 2008 by Matt Bower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Diesel fuel can be used as a quenchant. Gasoline (petrol) cannot. You can toss lit matches into either #1 or #2 diesel fuel all day long without setting it afire. It will catch fire if you get it hot enough, but it takes more than one blade (unless your quench is really too small anyway). The same speed as water, without sori, can be obtained by using water soluble polymer solution with water. It also eliminates the danger of cracking, and is replacing oil in industry here, due to easier cleanup, mostly. I do not know if anyone in the UK sells it, but I have used PEO (polyethyloxazoline) mfd. by Houghton Intl. with great success to produce very cool hamon. It does not produce much sori, and what sori it does make will relax upon tempering in my experience (which I still cannot explain). I would think that PEG (polyethylene glycol) would produce similar results, and it is more widely available here. I have heard it postulated that Park #50 is nothing more than kerosene, though I do not know that to be true or false, having never fooled with it myself. I have quenched in diesel, vegetable oils, and commercial quenching oils, but not that one. I was not trying to produce hamon at the time, however. Edited December 4, 2008 by Howard Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter johnsson Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Howard, I am glad to hear you have experience with polymer quench (I should have guessed!). I have never worked with polymer quench, but had had thoughts about from time to time. The main reason why I did not try it, was that I was told it needs continual upkeep to work well. That it needs stirring to avoid clogging and that it needs to be rather carefully balanced out with the correct proportion between polymer and water through out the process. Could you share some of your impressions and experiences with this medium? Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Kobayashi Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) 1 Edited March 29, 2011 by Robert Kobayashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake cleland Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 thank's for the advice guys. Howard, do you happen to have a TT diagram for the 1086M? or do you know offhand where the pearlite nose and ms points are? i'm going to be quenching my first sword fairly soon, and want to know the minimum time i can quench in water for before getting it into oil as i'm quite fond of this wakizashi and want to minimise the cracking risk. also, is it worth adding dish soap to the water as a surficant to destabalise the vapour phase and speed up the first part of the quench if i'm going to finish it in oil? Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Well, the polymer IS a bit of a pain to keep up and use. The solution strength is measure optically, with a refractometer. I use high temperature salt to austentize, and the salt is also water soluble. So when you quench, a small amount of water is lost due to evaporation, and a small amount of salt is introduced from the high temp. salt pot. Over several blades (swords), the instrument readings change, and since the salt is also a water soluble material in the solution, the refractometer is trying to measure two things as one, so it is wrong. As long as you were austenitizing dry, in the forge, I don't think that would be an issue. I ultimately gave up on it for katana because of the sori issues. It doesn't give much curve, and what there is relaxed upon tempering. Both were extra problems I did not need to deal with. Made really beautiful hamon, though. I also used it to harden a variety of "mystery metal" damascus when I was heat treating blades for other people (which I no longer do), and if it will harden at all, you can get it hard in a low % polymer solution, without fear of cracking. The initial heat extraction rate is very high, just like water. As the temperature rises in the solution surrounding the blade, a polymer film collects on the surface of the blade, slowing the heat extraction rate due to the film of polymer on the surface. The higher the % concentration, the faster that happens (i.e. the more quickly the film builds up) and the faster the rate of heat extraction slows over time (that sounds very strange). It can be mixed in very low percentages and behave more or less like a water quench. At higher concentrations it's like oil, increase it more, it's like slow oil. The polymer is inversely soluble. That is to say, the hotter the solution, the less polymer it will dissolve, and the more collects on the part as a film. Operating temperature is critical as well. The specification on the one I have is 80*F for optimal heat extraction rate. It is useful, and interesting. And it leaves a dry film on the surface of the blades that is corrosion resistant, because it is a continuous polymer film over the surface to exclude oxygen. It does like water, though, and if it's really humid, they get slimy. I used a stirring device in my quench when using polymer, but it was more an effort to affect the heat extraction rate with agitation than anything else. I never used a batch of it long enough to have any real trouble with it in terms of maintenance issues like clogging or anything. I still have some, though I seldom use it now. Thanks for the kind wishes, Robert. Enough WD-40 to quench in would be cost prohibitive, I think. I suspect it would work fine, though. I do not like oil for quenching much, and so have explored many other alternatives. I like water, or low temperature salt the best. But polymer is nicer than oil, if for no other reason, it cleans up with water. Edited December 4, 2008 by Howard Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lambiase Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I am also not a fan of oils. If it cant go into water (Randal Graham can quench just about anything in water with good results) then it goes into low temp salt in my shop. Soon there will be high temp salts in this equation... I believe I remember reading that you can add dish soap at a certain percentage to non-commercial oil quenchants to speed them up, but that might not be true, and I have no experiance with it Good luck with this quenching. Mike Lambiase Mike Lambiase Burning Man Forge E-mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter johnsson Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Thank you Howard! That was very helpful. Sadly it reinforced my impressions. I will not go this route for a while yet. ...Until the hamon bug gets me in a bad way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Thank you Howard! That was very helpful. Sadly it reinforced my impressions. I will not go this route for a while yet. ...Until the hamon bug gets me in a bad way. That too was my plan but things kind of took over I am now firmly a 50/50 oil or water kind of guy .In some ways life was a lot easier before water quenching .Start down that road and you'll be making your own steel to get away from that damned manganese .I had planned to save Japanese stuff for my retirement Hey Ho, things seldom happen as you plan them . forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik markman Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I recently got some Hydrodur GF made by Durferrit, it's a salt-like powder wich you have to dissolve in water. I have tried it once on a couple of W2 blades and it worked. I put in more then the reccomended 5% so I think it was still a bit slow. This stuff needs more experiments but it looks promising! Oh, and it tastes awfully salt (had to try!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) Sounds like that is PEG. It is sold in dry powders. It comes in a bewildering array of molecular weights, all of which behave slightly differently. Retirement !? When they put me in the box. Edited December 5, 2008 by Howard Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bower Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 My comment was directed at WD-40, which in my experience seems to be a lot more flammable than diesel. Upon further investigation, though, maybe not so much. In any event, I was only trying to suggest that a little caution may be warranted when experimenting with novel, flammable quenchants. I do apologize for making the point in the smart-@$$ way I did. With respect to the cost issue, WD-40's price in one gallon cans is around $15/gallon, which is comparable to or better than the prices I've seen for small quantities of commercial quenching oils. (I think I paid a bit more than that for my P50 from Darren Ellis, including shipping, but I don't remember exactly what I paid.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 i use wd40 all the time for a lubricant when hand sanding .I'll buy a gallon as i'd use it anyway so no loss there. I will report back unless someone else does first. forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 OK 10 liters bought ! forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I look forward to the report Owen ! Keep your face back, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I look forward to the report Owen ! Keep your face back, just in case. Hopefully he does not end up with a REAL fiery beard! Let not the swords of good and free men be reforged into plowshares, but may they rest in a place of honor; ready, well oiled and God willing unused. For if the price of peace becomes licking the boots of tyrants, then "To Arms!" I say, and may the fortunes of war smile upon patriots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Diesel fuel can be used as a quenchant. Gasoline (petrol) cannot. You can toss lit matches into either #1 or #2 diesel fuel all day long without setting it afire. It will catch fire if you get it hot enough, but it takes more than one blade (unless your quench is really too small anyway). The same speed as water, without sori, can be obtained by using water soluble polymer solution with water. It also eliminates the danger of cracking, and is replacing oil in industry here, due to easier cleanup, mostly. I do not know if anyone in the UK sells it, but I have used PEO (polyethyloxazoline) mfd. by Houghton Intl. with great success to produce very cool hamon. It does not produce much sori, and what sori it does make will relax upon tempering in my experience (which I still cannot explain). I would think that PEG (polyethylene glycol) would produce similar results, and it is more widely available here. I have heard it postulated that Park #50 is nothing more than kerosene, though I do not know that to be true or false, having never fooled with it myself. I have quenched in diesel, vegetable oils, and commercial quenching oils, but not that one. I was not trying to produce hamon at the time, however. For polymers - try Houghton PLC in the UK. The Park #50 is a mineral oil of very low viscosity. It also has a low flash point. I would not recommend using kerosene - much too low of a flash temperature. Use a quality quenchant so you can get repeatable results. Houghton K is THE fastest quenchant out there. It is a premium quench oil. But I am biased D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Anybody ever try WD-40? It's about the same viscosity as Parks 50. RK Check the flash temperature - it is VERY LOW. It would be dangerous to try that! D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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