First Full Length Katana

[C.Anderson]

KINDA fun./??? Swords and race cars... jeeez, can't get any better than that!

 

EDIT: BTW, dad was a modified, dry track champ, several years in a row. That's how i recognized the tires.

 

 

Yeah the dirt track stuff is a blast lol. There's no words at all =D.

 

My toy was a high 9 second 1967 Mustang coupe. Daily drivable (while the engine was still in it lol), pump gas...no nitrous, no blower, supercharger, or any other 'artificial inspiration' lol. Small block (347ci), custom home made EFI system that looks like a carb setup under the air cleaner (other than the injector rails). Pro shifted 5spd, spooled 4.30 geared rear, and a cruise rpm of only 2200. The best part was getting teched to run 11.50 lol, then getting booted off the track for a maiden trip in the 9.90's at over 135 lol, on 10.5" M/T drag radials that it drove to the track on. Had to install a cage and some other things...then needed money and ended up selling parts and the like. Toys aren't any fun when you can't play with them lol...and often just get left in the toy box or sold off. Not sure where this one's headed.

 

Anyhow...it really doesn't get better than swords and race cars lol, specially when one of them is a street car that whoops on most race cars out there =D.

 

Cris

[C.Anderson]

I'm pretty pleased with it too. Funny story here...I've never really paid any attention to my Sensei's sword other than of course to say how nice it was lol. Well, this weekend he had to go out of town right after class, and asked me to take it home with me until next week. So, being me lol, and knowing it's a quality piece and one incredible cutter...I took a bunch of measurements lol. The kissaki is PRECISELY the same...literally. The profile is identical within .025", other than this blade is 26", and his is 28.5". When I laid them side by side I was like....wow lol. I'll take some pictures tomorrow to show you guys lol.

 

Couldn't sleep...so here's those pictures lol:

 

 

I swear on ALL THAT IS HOLY that I had no intention of matching this blade lol. The thicknesses are of course different. The profile and lengths of the kissaki bear an unreal resemblance lol. The only real difference I can see is that I'd chosen a higher shinogi placement.

 

So now the story. I had been talking to my Sensei about this sword I'm forging. He'd looked at the pictures on another forum, and asked me to bring it into class Friday night. He looked it over...and his eyes got sort of wide lol...and he pulled out his blade. Both our jaws dropped. Now, understand...I'd looked his blade over before...but never really committed it to memory lol. It was nice, but not really my style (I hadn't even noticed it was folded), particularly in the mount department...which, face it...is really what commits a blade to our memory....a nice blade with lackluster fittings is...a nice blade but nothing special. Don't misunderstand, the fittings are well done, and the theme is nice...it's just not my preferance. One thing however that the sword undisputably is, is an extremely sharp, and quite durable cutter (so I'm actually quite happy with the resemblance lol). I suppose I was on the right track =). Anyhow, Sensei let me borrow it for the week (there were some other circumstances involved as well, as I said) to look it over and see if there's anything I can learn from it. He says it has minimal niku...but that it was designed to be a harder target cutter. I can certainly see what he meant now, and I was somewhat on the right track there too. Nice to have my ideas reinforced!

 

Anyhow, just thought you guys would get a kick out of a really crazy coincidence like I did =D.

 

Cris

[WillG74]

Oh man, I myself am very sentimental. I would never sell my first katana, but that is just me. This is going to be a hobby for me. But hey Congrats on selling your work. I might possibly sell some of my work if it starts piling up on me and people like it, but not my first one. But, it is the journey and what we learn from it that counts, not the destination. I can not tell by just looking but is the geometry of your blade wide and flat like the Cheness SGC cutters? I am not sure if you are familiar with them or not but I was just wondering. And I am in no way comparing your blade to theirs. I was just curious about the geometry of the blade. Keep up the good work though and the pics. They are very informative and inspirational. Thank You!

[C.Anderson]

Oh man, I myself am very sentimental. I would never sell my first katana, but that is just me. This is going to be a hobby for me. But hey Congrats on selling your work. I might possibly sell some of my work if it starts piling up on me and people like it, but not my first one. But, it is the journey and what we learn from it that counts, not the destination. I can not tell by just looking but is the geometry of your blade wide and flat like the Cheness SGC cutters? I am not sure if you are familiar with them or not but I was just wondering. And I am in no way comparing your blade to theirs. I was just curious about the geometry of the blade. Keep up the good work though and the pics. They are very informative and inspirational. Thank You!

 

I didn't want to, but circumstances dictate ones decisions sometimes.

 

I did tell him that I might eventually forge him a replacement free of charge, just to get this one back =D.

 

On the geometry thing...no, mines not much like a Cheness SGC, or the Hanwei Elite/XL or whatever they're calling their competition geometry now. My geometry is based off of discussions I've had with a sword designer friend, but modified by me to be a bit more traditional. The production competition stuff is basically for dedicated tatami cutting, the edge doesn't have the strength for harder targets. My blade is wide yes...but also thicker, with a very high shinogi, distal taper, and will have visible niku. The width (and quite high shinogi) moderates the niku, the thickness moderates the width, and it all sort of works together to make for a blade that will happily cut dry bamboo, while still hopefully being a laser through tatami.

 

Now if only I can polish (read: shape) the blade to complement my intended design lol.

 

Cris

[C.Anderson]

Well, I spent about 8hrs today cleaning and trueing things up with the file. Again I'm pretty pleased with the results. But...man that yokote is going to be a pain lol. I'd probably still be out there, but the cheap clamps I was using to hold the blade down stressed and snapped while LOOSENING them. Going to weld myself up a better setup tomorrow =).

 

Anyhow, here's a small progression, and where we are so far:

 

Both side blade shots, and the lovely wife in the background.

 

 

Some of the worst scale pits I had to take out...and a progression of their removal. Tomorrow I'll need to go through and reset the lines completely just to ensure they're razor straight and clean.

 

Overall progress was good. File time is monotonous, but peaceful (until you roll over a line...then it's peaceful again when the cussing subsides =D). It seems like 8hrs of filing is a lot, but it's not filing every minute of course lol. Lots of layout, and making sure everything is straight as can be. I've never used a grinder to set lines, but I bet it's the same as afar as layout and such goes. Just faster in between lol (with a LOT MORE ROOM for screwing things up!).

 

So I'm pretty happy. It's shaping up nicely into a sword, and if the heat treat goes smoothly, I think I'll be pretty pleased with myself =D. I've also got to spend some time making an oil cylinder for the heat treat setup...so it may not end up being until later in the week that we find out about that.

 

Cris

[stephanfowler]

Overall progress was good. File time is monotonous, but peaceful (until you roll over a line...then it's peaceful again when the cussing subsides =D). It seems like 8hrs of filing is a lot, but it's not filing every minute of course lol. Lots of layout, and making sure everything is straight as can be. I've never used a grinder to set lines, but I bet it's the same as afar as layout and such goes. Just faster in between lol (with a LOT MORE ROOM for screwing things up!).

 

Cris

 

 

Even with my 2x72 grinder, I still set lines by drawfiling, i actually prefer it and have found that with a good sharp file I can get work done FASTER than with the grinder (just takes more sweat)

 

Stephan

[dan pfanenstiel]

Nice Cris, good work. I feel better about my shop now too :-)

 

You are right, lots of work there, and lots of learning. I think we all do this and start weighing in what we're willing to do for balance in this phase. I cracked enough blades in quench to realize that using the grinder to get close and draw filing to quickly clean things up was a good thing. Bad thing is that the grinder will screw things up fast. But if you put in weeks of work and crack the blade...... depends on your temperment. I lost a good oak bar stool in my shop to my temperment one time. Wasnt' the barstool's fault, it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time......

 

I really, really hope that blade holds together in the quench. Maybe if we all focus our mental energies at the same time when you're quenching... :-)

 

Dan

[C.Anderson]

Thanks guys =).

 

And you're right...it is a lot of work. Although in thinking about that 8hrs lol, I'm sure a good amount of it could be attributed to watching various plays in the Cardinals game yesterday lol. We live about a mile from the stadium =). I've been wanting to build a nice belt grinder. Right now I've got a little 3"x21" hand held belt sander I clamp in the vise to break down edges and such after heat treat, but there's not enough flexibility and control to do much else with it. The only thing I find I use it for prior to heat treat is to set the profile of the blade, as the 10" flat surface takes out any waves in the edge or spine easier than a 1"-2" wide file, which simply rides the high spots, and deepens the valleys =).

 

Funny thing with this blade, is I forged it close enough to shape that setting the lines wasn't difficult at all (I think a grinder would have overdone it). What took so long was KEEPING those lines, and getting out those tiny scale pits in the above pictures. I don't know if a grinder would have helped much there.

 

Dan, lol...my shop is also our race shop. So I've got my Dad, and half the race team scattering things about on a regular basis. Add to that that this is a county island (read: rural...we live next to a dairy) in the middle of town, so dust and spiders are a fact of life lol, and there you have it. It gets completely cleaned about once a month, and looks the same within three days =D. If it's only you in your shop...then you only have you to blame lol (so I can feel better about my shop! =D).

 

Cris

[Sam Salvati]

How thick is the edge? i would bring it down much thinner than it looks or you will have a BEAR of a time getting it down.

[C.Anderson]

How thick is the edge? i would bring it down much thinner than it looks or you will have a BEAR of a time getting it down.

 

The edge varies right now (going to bring it all down the same before HT). The thinnest area is from the yokote forward at .055" (which I'm a bit worried about for HT). The rest of the blade is from .065" right behind the yokote to .080" for the rest of the blade. With as wide as this blade is, and how much curvature I'm thinking it will get...I'm a LOT worried about thinning the edge. I have no experience to base what's 'safe' on =/.

 

Anyhow, I didn't get much done today (may do some work later though). Picked up a couple new clamps since my other broke. Filed down the whole blade with a finer single cut file, and did some finish work of sorts on the kissaki and mune in the kissaki area (since it will be hardened and filing it will be impossible).

 

 

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out (I keep saying that lol). I've been surprising myself with this blade...not because it's turning out well so much as it's turning out well with a lot less mistakes and effort than I expected =). I'd planned to make it turn out well one way or the other...nice not to have to work as hard as expected for it.

 

Cris

[C.Anderson]

Ha!! Told you I'd probably do more tonight lol.

 

Finished 99% of the pre heat treat work. Blade is now fine filed with a single cut, lines are set, and all that's left is to plane down the kissaki to minimize shaping work post heat treat.

 

Here's the results:

 

 

So, tomorrow I'm hoping to pick up the oil can I need, and maybe, just maybe...heat treat tomorrow evening =D.

 

Cris

[WillG74]

Hey Cris,

I noticed that you you started with 1/4" x 1 1/2" x 60" Bar stock. What is your opinion on 1/4" x 1" x 60" Bar stock? I was planning on ordering that size until I re-read what you are using. Since I have no real experience with these matters I was wanting your opinion on this. Could I still forge a good blade with the smaller stock? I would like to know if you would recommend the size you are using or if you just wanted a somewhat beefy blade. Oh, and if you get the chance could possibly post a diagram of the profile of your blade as compared to the Cheness SGC and the geometry of a regular blade. It would be most helpful to me. on the Cheness site they show the difference between the regular geometry and the SGC cutter and I would much like to compare the differences of your katana and the other 2 blade profiles. But if it is going to be a pain for you don't worry about it. I was just curious. I am just having a difficult time visualizing the differences. Anyway, thanks for sharing and keep up the good work. It is looking really nice.

[C.Anderson]

Hey Cris,

I noticed that you you started with 1/4" x 1 1/2" x 60" Bar stock. What is your opinion on 1/4" x 1" x 60" Bar stock? I was planning on ordering that size until I re-read what you are using. Since I have no real experience with these matters I was wanting your opinion on this. Could I still forge a good blade with the smaller stock? I would like to know if you would recommend the size you are using or if you just wanted a somewhat beefy blade. Oh, and if you get the chance could possibly post a diagram of the profile of your blade as compared to the Cheness SGC and the geometry of a regular blade. It would be most helpful to me. on the Cheness site they show the difference between the regular geometry and the SGC cutter and I would much like to compare the differences of your katana and the other 2 blade profiles. But if it is going to be a pain for you don't worry about it. I was just curious. I am just having a difficult time visualizing the differences. Anyway, thanks for sharing and keep up the good work. It is looking really nice.

 

Well...I don't know that I could recommend much of anything to be honest. I'm not really qualified. But, I can post my experience based on what I'm using and how it's worked out.

 

First, I ordered the wider stock as you know, to upset down and thicken the spine, giving me a more substantial blade. The customer wanted 3/8". Measuring the thickness between shinogi lines during forging I was able to get it to just under 3/8", in filing out the scale, I had it at about 5/16", and in finish filing, it's now just over 1/4" (exactly .275"), and likely to lose a small amount in polishing. If it's 1/4" at the machi when it's done I'll be happy, if only because it didn't end up thinner!

 

I originally was going to order 1/4"x1", and am SO glad this customer requested a thicker blade. I've now realized that there is no possible way I could end up with a 1/4" thick blade, even at the machi...while using the smaller stock. Someone else might be able to lol, but not I.

 

As for a geometry comparison...I'll draw something up when I get home from taking my son to school. But in looking at the cheness drawing, I can safely say my blade is NOTHING in the world like either of their geometries. More on that later.

 

Cris

Edited January 20, 2009 by C.Anderson

[C.Anderson]

Double post!!

Edited January 20, 2009 by C.Anderson

[C.Anderson]

Here you go. As I said, this geometry is based off of a few different concepts, and although it looks great, and should cut great...I don't know just how traditional it is. The niku in the picture is slightly exaggerated to illustrate that it is there, but otherwise the dimensions are correct. The Standard Cheness is 1.25"x.300", the Cheness SGC is 1.5"x.250", while my blade is 1.3"x.275" or so. It was supposed to be a bit thicker lol, but I think it will work well as it is.

 

 

One thing also that is different with my blade is there is real and distinct distal and profile taper. This aids in handling, but does change the geometry as you go. For my sword, picture ALL the dimensions shrinking other than the spacing between the mune and shinogi (which stays at .350"). All through the monouchi (final 1/3 of the blade) the blade descends from 1.2" to 1" at the yokote, and from .255" to .210" at the yokote. As I said, the dimension at the machi is .275".

 

Anyhow, hope this helps some. And also, bear in mind that this is a first generation. My own blade will be forged this way, then tested (probably rather brutally lol), and design changes made from there.

 

Cris

Edited January 20, 2009 by C.Anderson

[WillG74]

Wow! Thanks Cris. I really appreciate you taking the time for that. It has gone a long way to helping me understand your geometry. I also would have to agree that it is going to be a very good cutter. I am gonna copy and paste the pic for reference in the future. Now if I just had a comparison pic of say 20 different blade geometries that I could choose from when forging I would be set. I do suppose I will probably draw up quite a few pics for reference in the future. When I get them done I will share them. I love reference pics they help me visualize things a lot easier. Hmm, I will still have to decide on the 1" or 1 1/2". Oh heck I think I will order both and find out what size I need the old fashioned way. By just doing it. Keep up the great work.

[C.Anderson]

Wow! Thanks Cris. I really appreciate you taking the time for that. It has gone a long way to helping me understand your geometry. I also would have to agree that it is going to be a very good cutter. I am gonna copy and paste the pic for reference in the future. Now if I just had a comparison pic of say 20 different blade geometries that I could choose from when forging I would be set. I do suppose I will probably draw up quite a few pics for reference in the future. When I get them done I will share them. I love reference pics they help me visualize things a lot easier. Hmm, I will still have to decide on the 1" or 1 1/2". Oh heck I think I will order both and find out what size I need the old fashioned way. By just doing it. Keep up the great work.

 

Thanks!

 

I've found that (at least at my level of skill) forging and geometry have little to do with each other, other than where you set the shinogi. Most everything comes in with the file work (even the shinogi you set with the hammer lol). I mean, someone better than I could probably forge in niku...but for me it's all flat angles. A professional polisher friend told me that even when shaping the blade prior to heat treat to use flat angles. He said there is plenty of meat in a 1/8" thick edge to pull whatever niku necessary out of, and that the smith trying to overly shape things before heat treat is just an excercise in frustration. Basically get it flat, get it smooth, and worry about the edge geometry once the blade lives =).

 

On the steel sizing, like I said, I couldn't successfully make a blade out of 1/4"x1" stock. Not a katana sized blade. It would work great for tanto I think though.

 

Anyhow, here's a couple more pictures, then I'm heading out to finish the nakago, and get things ready for heat treat tonight!

 

 

 

Cris

[Noah M Legel]

Looks great, Cris! It makes me want to stop by Glendale one of these days to bug you and see it in person . From what I can tell based on the diagram you provided to show the geometry of your blade in comparison to Cheness blades, I actually think yours is traditional enough. When I was studying the process of traditional Japanese swordmaking for my Junior-year term paper, I actually stumbled across a museum website (which I unfortunately no longer have bookmarked) that had a picture of an old katana (I want to say 16 Century, but I could be wrong) that had been broken, and they cut off the broken piece so you could see the grain of the different steels, as well as the blade geometry. Yours is almost exactly the same as that picture, and I REALLY wish I still had it!

[C.Anderson]

Looks great, Cris! It makes me want to stop by Glendale one of these days to bug you and see it in person . From what I can tell based on the diagram you provided to show the geometry of your blade in comparison to Cheness blades, I actually think yours is traditional enough. When I was studying the process of traditional Japanese swordmaking for my Junior-year term paper, I actually stumbled across a museum website (which I unfortunately no longer have bookmarked) that had a picture of an old katana (I want to say 16 Century, but I could be wrong) that had been broken, and they cut off the broken piece so you could see the grain of the different steels, as well as the blade geometry. Yours is almost exactly the same as that picture, and I REALLY wish I still had it!

 

Ahh! That would be an awesome link! I know there is a geometry similar to mine, but the width of the blade is smaller if I recall. I don't think the Japanese did many really wide blades. This is almost a full sized hira zukuri, with the top of a shinogi zukuri attached for good measure lol, which was kind of the idea =D..

 

As for visiting...there's not too much to see lol. Just a dusty old shop and a dirt forge area lol. Well, and whatever work I'm doing at the time lol. If you really want to come by shoot me a PM and we'll see what we can put together.

 

Cris

Edited January 22, 2009 by C.Anderson

[Noah M Legel]

Ahh! That would be an awesome link! I know there is a geometry similar to mine, but the width of the blade is smaller if I recall. I don't think the Japanese did many really wide blades. This is almost a full sized hira zukuri, with the top of a shinogi zukuri attached for good measure lol, which was kind of the idea =D..

 

As for visiting...there's not too much to see lol. Just a dusty old shop and a dirt forge area lol. Well, and whatever work I'm doing at the time lol. If you really want to come by shoot me a PM and we'll see what we can put together.

 

Cris

 

I know! I did a bunch of searching tonight but I couldn't find the thing again, which is really annoying. From what I recall, it was indeed smaller in width than yours appears to be--1/4" maybe. Even so, the geometry isn't too far off.

 

I'll probably shoot you a PM after I spend this Saturday with Tai Goo in Tucson, since I haven't forged a blade at this point

[C.Anderson]

I know! I did a bunch of searching tonight but I couldn't find the thing again, which is really annoying. From what I recall, it was indeed smaller in width than yours appears to be--1/4" maybe. Even so, the geometry isn't too far off.

 

I'll probably shoot you a PM after I spend this Saturday with Tai Goo in Tucson, since I haven't forged a blade at this point

 

Very nice!! I was supposed to spend some time with Tai early this year...but funds aren't allowing for it unfortunately lol.

 

On the sword, whan I say width I mean edge to spine...side to side is always thickness =).

 

Good luck with Tai...you stand to learn a LOT...definitely take advantage of it!

 

Cris

[Noah M Legel]

Very nice!! I was supposed to spend some time with Tai early this year...but funds aren't allowing for it unfortunately lol.

 

On the sword, whan I say width I mean edge to spine...side to side is always thickness =).

 

Good luck with Tai...you stand to learn a LOT...definitely take advantage of it!

 

Cris

 

Yeah, the only reason I can afford to go learn from Tai is because I've been doing some extra computer work on the side, so I have money I didn't expect to have. I know I will learn a LOT, and I will definitely have to write stuff down .

 

Yep, I knew what you meant by width. There wasn't too much difference from yours in thickness from what I remember

[C.Anderson]

Well...talk about one freaking annoyed newbie bladesmith.

 

Good news and bad news. The good news is, I attempted the heat treat tonight. Bad news is, it failed. Good news is, it's still in one piece so I can try again.

 

What a joke. Three. Yes...THREE freaking propane tanks here, and not one of them anything less than dead empty. So, since I use the propane/weed burner to sort of fill in the gaps where the charcoal heat treat forge misses heating things properly...and the one I was using chose the VERY LAST FREAKING INSTANT to die on me, only the first half of the blade hardened =/. I mean, WTF is it with me having to harden these freaking things twice?!?! As if the stress of once isn't enough you know? Not to mention I wasted about 20lbs of charcoal, and am going to have to make more before i do it again, ON TOP of having to get the #(*$)$# propane tank filled that caused the whole mess to begin with.

 

Bleh! FOUR freaking wasted hours tonight.

 

Anyhow...just sucks...because the part that DID harden...hardened beautifully. No pings, the beginning of great curvature...and what looked to be a nice pattern on the hamon from the rough view. Very much like my tanto.

 

/sigh...may tomorrow be a better day =/.

 

Cris

[Noah M Legel]

Well...talk about one freaking annoyed newbie bladesmith.

 

Good news and bad news. The good news is, I attempted the heat treat tonight. Bad news is, it failed. Good news is, it's still in one piece so I can try again.

 

What a joke. Three. Yes...THREE freaking propane tanks here, and not one of them anything less than dead empty. So, since I use the propane/weed burner to sort of fill in the gaps where the charcoal heat treat forge misses heating things properly...and the one I was using chose the VERY LAST FREAKING INSTANT to die on me, only the first half of the blade hardened =/. I mean, WTF is it with me having to harden these freaking things twice?!?! As if the stress of once isn't enough you know? Not to mention I wasted about 20lbs of charcoal, and am going to have to make more before i do it again, ON TOP of having to get the #(*$)$# propane tank filled that caused the whole mess to begin with.

 

Bleh! FOUR freaking wasted hours tonight.

 

Anyhow...just sucks...because the part that DID harden...hardened beautifully. No pings, the beginning of great curvature...and what looked to be a nice pattern on the hamon from the rough view. Very much like my tanto.

 

/sigh...may tomorrow be a better day =/.

 

Cris

 

Well that sucks/rocks at the same time. I'm glad there were no dreaded pings, and hopefully the next run goes better!

[wannabeswordsmith]

OK, Cris, I don't know where I missed this one at , but this is the first time I have seen this. DAMN IT BOY!!! Man this is turning out freaking great!!!