JPH Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Mr. Pringle: That looks MUCH better than the first photo..To me it doesn't LOOK like a fold over at the present time..Looks rather solid in fact. Guess I don't have to tell ya about my hot biscuit technique ....It does make things a bit easier on the hairpin welds... Question.. Have you tried welding the edging to the two outter cores, then welding the two edges/outter cores together with the centre core in between the two p[reviously welded core sides?? I have done that a few times and it presents an entirely different set of patterning problems.... I am working on a shortsword thingy I welded up out of some old files I had laying about (shouldn't waste decent steel) and some 300 series SS I did on a whim just because I had nothing better to do that day.... below is a photo of it before I fuller it... Fullering can play with your head as well when it comes to patterns too..(that should come up shortly if this discussion heads where I am thinking it is.....) Not the greatest photo in the world but I never said I was a photographer. This is as forged and before fullering...the SS is really thin as I used HT foil I took in on a trade a while back...A little "tricky" to weld, but boy is the contrast NICE....Right now it's a bit on the "rough side" pattern wise but it will all "smooth out" once I get done with it... Mr. Longmire: Thank you Sir for the kind words..my beard is long gone thanks to all those years in the Nevada Guard, although for a while there I was rather wild and woolley...between stints working for Uncle Sugar.....Now that I am retired..My wife likes the "mr Clean" look...I think she is use to it actually.... Now I do have to ask ..Who let J. Arthur in here??? Then again, you all let me in and now ya all see what you get???.. How you doing on your side of the country Arthur?? I am strongly leaning towards cores closer to finished length that what most of us have believed and seem to have used before, and since others are independantly finding the same basic things that I am, this verifies that we are on the right road, at least for now. This is a good thing indeed...Maybe one day will will be able to figure it out..only to find some other blade done differently and that would be fun too....Something "new" always come up... Now I just have to get out of the Japanese section of book IV and get into the down and dirty of the European section as well.... JPH I am sorry..this photo just didn't work out as expected...Maybe I should load up my Gatling Gun and threaten my computer one more time to get it to do what I want....It really bites being a 19th Century man stuck in the 21st.... Edited March 3, 2009 by JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pringle Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hey Jol – that’s the way to do it! That sax is continental Merovingian, I would guess from its form, in a private collection so less officially placed than a museum artifact. I have not tried welding the core to the edge first, but in consideration of the stretch issue have been thinking about how complicated you can get with the core and still do everything in one weld operation. This current blade was done in one shot. It would get dicey with a six- or eight-bar core, I bet! Here’s a small section of twist, split in two and welded side-by-side then ground down a wee bit – note the complete lack of bookmatching going on... Jomsvikingar Raða Ja! http://vikingswordsmith.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) This trowel was done in one shot. It was a right bugger if I say so myself... From the center out, 1095, A36, a W-1/wrought iron twist, and 1095. Edited March 3, 2009 by Alan Longmire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Mr. Pringle: On the photo of the split..did you totally seperate the pieces and then weld them edge to edge or did you cut/chisel though 3/4s of the way, lay that open and then weld the "folded sides" together? I have been playing with the latter on some test pieces and I do get a matched pattern..as long as I am very careful about the depth of the cut...I feel that is the key to making this work on the "opening book" cutting technique. I do "square" the bars prior to this...makes the chisel slitting much easier, still takes some time ..I work alone, at first it took forever, now with my fly press that speeds things up a whole lot... Just curious...Speaking of fly presses, that makes fullering very quick... JPH P/S: When I get my next buggered up core I will do the open book slit and get a photo and post it...most times a photo really helps.. Right now I am working to get as much done as I can as I have a 7 weekend stint at RPFS coming up that starts the first weekend of next month...so this may take somr time.. Edited March 3, 2009 by JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pringle Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 That is an awesome blade, Alan! When do we get to see the matching spade, or a P-W’d EDC trowel for yourself? On that split twist it was completely cut, and indeed you get a well-matched pattern when you split a twist, with chisel or saw – but the bars will not book-match, since the split pair (even if Siamese, I believe) will both be either right or left handed as the parent twist was. This spear illustration was included in an article by Ypey to show a pattern so exactly matched it must (in his eyes) have been a split bar, and is probably what most folk imagine they will see when they open a twist. Sounds reasonable, but you can’t get the pattern that way! It is a cop-out theory that robs that smith of most of his glory – he really did make sure his left and right bars matched EXACTLY, and not only that he made sure they were revealed to the same cross-section in the finished spear – this guy’s beard was on fire! Best of luck at the RPFS, I hope the economic doomsayers don’t dampen the spirits there this year! Jomsvikingar Raða Ja! http://vikingswordsmith.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrystagmer Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 While the pattern is a bit of a cheat, this was my first attempt at getting the weld around the tip. I built up and welded the core first then wrapped in 2 layers 15n20 and 1070. While the weld seems to be fine where I had considerable trouble was material loss. I'll bet there was almost 8 lbs of material in this blade at the start. Now I'm left with a very light 24" blade. I assume using excessive heats cost me my material? How many heats would you guys expect at welding temp to create a sword sized blade? Kerry Stagmer www.baltimoreknife.com www.fireandbrimstone.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 What I have found myself doing is making the cores and edge stock to be about 1/4" thick before I weld the packet, as any thinner and I tend to burn stuff in two. After welding I try to do as little shaping beyond profile forging and bevelling as possible, having done the pattern development in the cores before adding them to the composite billet. I am a mere pup in this field, however, and do not profess to have a clue beyond what works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Mr. Stagmer: Material "loss" can and does vary quite a bit, depending upon the following: The material itself, some steels are more prone to scale and oxidation than others The type of heat source, coal, gas, oil or even induction (I have played around with induction heating and bot is it just strange..in a "fun" way) Time spent working (Ie, the number of heat) Type of flux used in welding (my "steel glue" is rather aggressive and that can lead to material loss) Experience and working habits of the one doing the work.. There are others as well...such as The method of construction Patterns (some patterns require material removal of some sort and that contributes to the loss "problem") These are not the only factors, there are others but these are the most common ones... Now I work rather fast, with my equipment and all I can weld up a sword in a day. right now I start with 1 1/4" sq, about 14" long for a three core sword. Weld up about 50 or so layers the first weld (I use sheet), save three welds right there by using thinner materials at the start. I cut into three or 4 pieces, not just "folding over" (takes way too long) depending upon what I am planning, reweld and I am DONE with the core materials. Both Julius Squeezer (my 84 ton high speed hydraulic press) and his Nephew Augustus Squeezer (my flypress) do come into play. For welding I still do that by hand on the center cores, but for the edging, once the hairpin tip is welded I use my treadle hammer as it keeps things nice and straight...Other welds are done with a hand hammer..usually my every day 8#r.... It seems lately I am doing more and more "prep work" prior to welding either laminate or cores as I am trying to work as much as I can before I stick it all together so I don't mess with the patterning too much. I use to weld heavy and then forge out from there and that can FUBAR the pattern real quick like.... All in all it's now you yourself work and approach things. As you get more experience you will find you will get less "loss"....When I first started doing this struff "seriously" back in the early 1970's..I was slow and well I lost about 1/2 of the material I started out with..at LEAST..now, I loose maybe 15% volume wise...it's all in how you do it and what you are doing. Keep alot of notes on what you are doing and start "playing around" with different ways and see what works best for you...As I have said many times before there are more ways than one to do most things... On a lighter note..could someone please explain to me this whole beard of fire thing?? I feel a bit lost on that.... JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 On a lighter note..could someone please explain to me this whole beard of fire thing?? I feel a bit lost on that.... Ah, therein lies a tale! It started innocently enough as a kind of honorific joke in a long-deleted thread, and not surprisingly your old buddy Tai was involved. It has evolved to be a sort of merit-based club membership badge, denoting one's dedication to the way of the ancient European pattern-welded blade and all that goes along with it, plus a healthy dose of tomfoolery, as Don puts it. See the thread on Pringelrii's beard regarding the imminent invasion of Scotland for a good example of that. Basically, if the sight of a good pattern-welded blade inspires you to say "Dang, I gotta make one of those, and I can't rest until I do!" you're on your way in. The metaphysical flames will begin licking their way out of your chin, lighting your way to the old techniques and dazzling your enemies with its brilliance. It's a spiritual quest, it's a badge of honor, it's a sign that you just might be a little nuts. The official avatar modification is done by Jake Powning, one of the originators (if not THE originator, I don't remember clearly, there was whisky involved...) of the concept. J. Arthur, now aka Jól, was also one of the first members, along with five or six others. In your case, as one of the first to widely spread some knowledge of how it can be done outside a fairly restricted academic audience, you're probably a Godfather of the movement, if you'd like to add that to your existing title of Grand High Poobah of the Ancient and Mystical Order of the Illuminati (if I got that right). They are actually very similar organizations, now that I think about it... In other words, we represent the divine fools of bladesmithing, the sacred clowns, guardians of the old ways, enforcers of all that is right and true, and so on. Lots of Thor, a fair bit of Odin, plus a little Loki and a touch of Baldur, if you will. Plus you gotta be pretty good at it. Is that deep enough for you yet? We really haven't figured it out all the way ourselves, but we know a fiery beard when we see one. Kinda like art. Or pornography, for that matter. Like the Illuminati, one day we will rule the world. Well, we already do, of course, but it's a secret. One day it will be made plain, and then all shall bow before us!!! Or not. Perhaps some other Brothers will interject before I make too big an idiot of myself? Too late? Oh, well. Gotta go gear up to invade the Isle of Skye, after I finish these two seaxes I've been working on. Welcome aboard again, Dr. H! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Arthur Loose Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 On that split twist it was completely cut, and indeed you get a well-matched pattern when you split a twist, with chisel or saw – but the bars will not book-match, since the split pair (even if Siamese, I believe) will both be either right or left handed as the parent twist was. This spear illustration was included in an article by Ypey to show a pattern so exactly matched it must (in his eyes) have been a split bar, and is probably what most folk imagine they will see when they open a twist. Sounds reasonable, but you can’t get the pattern that way! It is a cop-out theory that robs that smith of most of his glory – he really did make sure his left and right bars matched EXACTLY, and not only that he made sure they were revealed to the same cross-section in the finished spear – this guy’s beard was on fire! Yep. Been pondering that one. I do think I have a solution... jloose.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 This is an old one but I managed to match the twists pretty good only to have the top bar "slip " back some as I hammered the billet from one side Doh . I have seen xrays of the Bamburgh sword and that is super tight ,6 bar alternate twist and straight certainly not stretched all that much ,I would imagine there beards were burning so bright they could probably work all night (and have to wear ye oldy shades) There is a limit to stretching a pattern the limit is how tight you can twist , we do have the advantage that modern well matched steels dont mind a lot of twist .I think the blade above had 2 1/2 twists in 2cm (bar being 12mm or so) I can now get that down to 2 1/2 in 1.5 cm which allows a little stretch 1.5cm twist ,1cm strait ......... and etch and if necesary stretch before assembly (a little trick passed on by Mick Maxen) Any more twisty than that and you start riping bars unless you re forge weld to stress relieve but you lose the pattern uniformity that way .....bla de bla bla. to an extent we have to fight against our modern welding knowledge and expectations to really get old form ....more hard work crappy materials and flawed welds and we could be getting close . we march backwards ( in time ) as we creep forwards (in knowledge). There is good beer to be had in both directions ! forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Ah, therein lies a tale!>> Mr. Longmire....ooohh k...geeze..a tale is right....sorta like the GHPoMCI "title" I got connected with from some "friends" a while back... I have been interested in European stuff since I was a kid...I tell ya, I dunno why the Japanese sword has been so hyped and almost diefied when those old men in 4th Cent Europe were doing a whole lot more "sophisticated" foprgings...Sigh... I look at the X-rays and at the various finds and I start to realise that these guys were basically making these things from dirt...makes one humble it does...to know that they were in a world lit only by fire and had little more than a place to stand, a forge and an anvil...and here we are 1500 some odd years later scratching our heads wondering how they did it...Genius, pure genious. Well I will be spilling more of my guts in book IV...on the European stuff as well as the Japanese...Once I get that wrought iron chain in from Mr Frank I just sent out for...I hope it is finer grained than that 1870 Cemetary fencing I have..this stuff is as coarse as a gravel road...I have to do a good bit of refining before I can even start to use it... I have some plans for that anchor chain if it is as good as everyone says, and I have no doubt that it is...heh heh heh.. To bad Mr. Bob Engnath is gone...(boy I miss that man to this day) He'd get a real kick out this...I am thinking a multi twist bar Seax with a shear steel edge with a hamon...That'll mess with folks' heads...Sorta like my "NagiDachi-Tachi"....(I got the tsukamaki wrapping down pretty good..now I gotta figure out the knots on the end...) I do have to ask...why would anyone want to invade Scotland? I mean it's full of Scots?? Come on...These poeple actually think that bagpipes are a musical instrament.. My ancestors are still laughing over that...They told these folks that an instrament of war is for making music?? As far as the smithing Gods of old I lean more towards my ancestral dieties of Hephastus and Atar Mazda (me being 1/2 Greek and 1/2 Parsi..my Mum couldn't outrun my Dad I guess....) Never though of myself as the "godfather" type, but thank you for the title... Anyway I have 30 days until RPFS starts and I need to finish at least another 45 pieces, most of them swords, thankfully all in carbon steel....so I best get out to it.. JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pringle Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 How many heats would you guys expect at welding temp to create a sword sized blade? four to six in one pass, followed perhaps by three or four “insurance” welding heats on a second pass…more or less, depending, etc. Here’s a short video of the tip weld on this serpent blade, not very smooth (although considering how out of practice I am, not bad, either! ), but it got the job done: …at some point in the middle of hammering I discovered an unnoticed hole in one glove - so it wasn’t just the beard burning during this weld! Jól, I like it! You have obviously twisted two bars in the same direction, to an incredible exact match, then carefully forged and ground them together so as to reveal the precise same layer all along their length, to trick people into thinking you had just twisted up a bar and bandsawn it in two – brilliant! Jomsvikingar Raða Ja! http://vikingswordsmith.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Arthur Loose Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Jól, I like it! You have obviously twisted two bars in the same direction, to an incredible exact match, then carefully forged and ground them together so as to reveal the precise same layer all along their length, to trick people into thinking you had just twisted up a bar and bandsawn it in two – brilliant! If I had a dime for every time someone complemented my obviously painstaking matching-up skills... Oh, by the way, JPH. They didn't let me in here... I had to sneak in the back and set my beard alight with some lighter fluid. Welcome! jloose.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Arthur Loose Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Well, shake it up, baby, now, (shake it up, baby) Twist and split. (twist and split) Cmon cmon, cmon, cmon, baby, now, (come on baby) Come on and work it on out. (work it on out) Well, work it on out, honey. (work it on out) You know you look so good. (look so good) You know you got me goin, now, (got me goin) Just like I knew you would. (like I knew you would) Well, shake it up, baby, now, (shake it up, baby) Twist and split. (twist and split) Cmon, cmon, cmon, cmon, baby, now, (come on baby) Come on and work it on out. (work it on out) You know you twist your little girl, (twist, little girl) You know you twist so fine. (twist so fine) Come on and twist a little closer, now, (twist a little closer) And let me know that youre mine. (let me know youre mine) Well, shake it up, baby, now, (shake it up, baby) Twist and split. (twist and split) Cmon, cmon, cmon, cmon, baby, now, (come on baby) Come on and work it on out. (work it on out) You know you twist your little girl, (twist, little girl) You know you twist so fine. (twist so fine) Come on and twist a little closer, now, (twist a little closer) And let me know that youre mine. (let me know youre mine) Well, shake it, shake it, shake it, baby, now. (shake it up baby) Well, shake it, shake it, shake it, baby, now. (shake it up baby) Well, shake it, shake it, shake it, baby, now. (shake it up baby) jloose.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) I have been interested in European stuff since I was a kid...I tell ya, I dunno why the Japanese sword has been so hyped and almost diefied when those old men in 4th Cent Europe were doing a whole lot more "sophisticated" forgings...Sigh... I look at the X-rays and at the various finds and I start to realise that these guys were basically making these things from dirt...makes one humble it does...to know that they were in a world lit only by fire and had little more than a place to stand, a forge and an anvil...and here we are 1500 some odd years later scratching our heads wondering how they did it...Genius, pure genious. And thus the emergence of the Fiery Beards. We feel the same way exactly. I like the idea of the seax with hamon, but did you know they actually seem to have existed? Jeff Brother Pringelrii above posted some links a while back of a Merovingian seax and a Roman spatha that got the Japanese polish treatment, and whaddaya know, hamon turned up! Probably not as a deliberate aesthetic effect when new, of course, but still. Gotta love the shallow hardening phenomenon of a clean manganese-free steel. Add to that the recent discovery that at least some of the "Ulfbehrt" swords seem to be made from a type of crucible steel 700 years before it was supposed to have been used in Europe, and it just proves there's truly nothing new under the forge. I always liked Hephaistos/Vulcan too, since he got Aphrodite/Venus. And who wouldn't like Atar Mazda, the never-ending fire? Fire-worship GOOD! Edited to add: Hey Jól, how about a rendition of "Let me stand next to your fire?" Edited March 5, 2009 by Alan Longmire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) I have been married to a purebred Norwegian for eighteen years. Almost every day I am having fend off a rampaging Viking that is using either physical or psyops assault tactics. I should at least have an honorary smoldering beard. Celtic edged defense weapons are useless when you're spending the night on the couch. Nothing short of surrender will fend off the attack. Edited March 5, 2009 by B Finnigan Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) Mr. Longmire: Yes, there would be a a resulting "line" in a differential heat treated blade, of course there would be..hard edge/soft(er) back goes back to..well, pretty much the start of things. I agree the same as you that any resulting "line" was not intended along the lines of the Japanese, Chinese and Korean blades, but it would still be "there" none the less.. Now would the makers back then do that degree of polish that the Japanese (especially) were known for to reveal that "feature"?? I dunno..I doubt it...these were "working blades" done by "working men" sorta thing.. Now don't get me wrong when I say that, I mean these were every day "user" blades, not a sword that was a "status" symbol like the Japanese swords became... Yes Sir, those "old guys" in Europe had this down...really had this down... It seems that every time I get something figured out..something else pops up and ruins my therory/process...Oh well, such is research..You just suck it up and keep on going.... On welding heats....It's that hairpin tip that is a real PITA..but using my "hot biscuit technique" that pretty much speeds that up a good bit..I take two heats to weld the tip and around the ogive..using the HBT..without it it use to take sometimes three maybe four heats until I was satisfied that the edge was welded solid.. welding the rest of the sword...depending upon the size of sword and the mood the steel is in that day 3 or 4 heats or so additionally...I find I am using my treadle hammer more and more for edging..faster and more efficient..plus less distortion on the pattern... JPH Edited March 5, 2009 by JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Arthur Loose Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I find I am using my treadle hammer more and more for edging..faster and more efficient..plus less distortion on the pattern... JPH You know, I find the treadle so much more powerful than the hand and so much more controllable than the press or the power hammer... I used to think I would graduate away from it but I think it's actually one of the best tools I have. Maybe I want to try a rolling mill for nice even pattern development... How's that flywheel compare? jloose.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Daniel Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Jol, how about Come on baby light my fire by the doors? Fire.. Heh heh. So punny... i only need 3 things to be happy: my girlfriend, my forge, and fruit juice. Casey W Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Arthur: I AM IN LOVE my treadle hammer especially for top tool work like viening and punching..frees up one hand and you still have great control and the work is basically right at an almost perfect level to see what you are doing up close and personal like.....You are so RIGHT about the control you can get with these, with a little practice and a good sense of balance you can really get a great deal of control on the amount of power, and the power is much more (at least is was to me) that you would think at first. Then again, your legs are the most powerful set of muscles on your body..so it does figure out....You just look like a mating insect with everything flailing about when you are using one.... The Flypress I am still "investigating". It is different than the power and hand hammer, and my hydraulic press is just pure power...almost scarey powerful..but the Fly press..Well having played around with it for a good while now I can see why these were so damn popular in European shops. VERY versatile pieces of equipment. Punching and drifting holes are a snap..bends are almost too easy, but what I really LOVE about it is the fullering options..I can even do raised centre ribs with no problem (albeit in small sections). Fullering you can actually "feel" the steel move under the press when the tools meet the material and start to squeeze. It's not at all a jarring impact or even produces any real "noise" like a hand hammer. GREAT control once you get the "hang" of "bumping it" with the wheel instead of just letting the press "free wheel" all the way down..Actually that is a very common mistake and can result is serious injury if you are NOT careful...Ask me how I found THAT out sometime.. Tools are just an extension of the smith's abilities, even today when you look back at the "Old Guys" doing this stuff 1500 plus years ago...They didn't have 1/10th the stuff we do now and look at what they made..BEAUTIFUL...Genious level work...and they did it the "hard way".. I sometimes wonder what one of those "Old Men of Bladesmithing" could make even using the modest equiment I have... My big problem is this: while my blade work is decent, I need help with the furniture...I would love to learn wire inlay/damascene/koftkari but I cannot even hold a pencil anymore..I know HOW to do it...done some of it, just need to learn the "right way" to do it!! Heck..even basic leatherworking skills would help me out...Like I said previously I am figuring out tsukamaki to some extent, just need to work out the right knots..There is so much to learn and I spent 40 years learning steel..now I have to learn the rest... These young turks that are up and coming have it made nowadays..so much information is available that wasn't "out there" even 10 years back..and more is on the way every day....all I can say is "go for it" and take it as far as you can...I am not getting any younger and I figure I have another 15 to 20 years left of really productive work time..so now I have to learn the rest of these things...as long as my eyesight holds out...I have the rest of my life to do that...My one "problem" is that I love forging so much that I get bored very easily with the other stuff that I simply "loose interest"...something I have to work on...(why do they call it ironwood when you can't forge it??) There was a point where I was considering finding someone that could do crackerjack mounts and doing collaboration pieces with them..but that didn't work out for a few reasons...nothing insurmountable, just logistics... Geeze this is turning into a monolouge...I gotta get back to work..sorry if I bored any of you with the ravings of an old lunatic.. JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeroen Zuiderwijk Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Mr. Longmire: Yes, there would be a a resulting "line" in a differential heat treated blade, of course there would be..hard edge/soft(er) back goes back to..well, pretty much the start of things. I agree the same as you that any resulting "line" was not intended along the lines of the Japanese, Chinese and Korean blades, but it would still be "there" none the less.. Now would the makers back then do that degree of polish that the Japanese (especially) were known for to reveal that "feature"?? I dunno..I doubt it...these were "working blades" done by "working men" sorta thing.. Now don't get me wrong when I say that, I mean these were every day "user" blades, not a sword that was a "status" symbol like the Japanese swords became... I don't see that. The small, broad and long saxes are usually found in graves with rich weapons assemblies, indicating warrior elites or nobility. Small and broad saxes accompanied double edged swords, and most of the bling went into the latter. But langsaxes replaced the sword & broadsax combo, and took over the complex patternwelding etc. I recall the mention of certain polishing powders being highly revered, as well as swords being filed and polished so that they looked like no man could have created them, and that one could count the hairs of ones reflection in them. If that was true for swords, I see no reason that that wouldn't have been applied at least to the langsaxes. I do expect that they would have notice the hamons, and I can't imagine that they wouldn't have been manipulating them, at least in the high end pieces. I don't really see how they were treated any different from Japanese swords. Japanese swords didn't have the complex hamons and polishes right from the start either. At some point they started experimenting with it, eventually resulting in what we see today. Considering that pretty much every other technique used in Japanese swords, is present in langsaxes and more, I see no reason why they wouldn't have been manipulating hamons and making them show by etching and polishing techniques, at least for the high end examples. Jeroen Zuiderwijk Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/barbarianmetalworking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hÿllyn Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I don't see that. The small, broad and long saxes are usually found in graves with rich weapons assemblies, indicating warrior elites or nobility. Small and broad saxes accompanied double edged swords, and most of the bling went into the latter. But langsaxes replaced the sword & broadsax combo, and took over the complex patternwelding etc. I recall the mention of certain polishing powders being highly revered, as well as swords being filed and polished so that they looked like no man could have created them, and that one could count the hairs of ones reflection in them. If that was true for swords, I see no reason that that wouldn't have been applied at least to the langsaxes. I do expect that they would have notice the hamons, and I can't imagine that they wouldn't have been manipulating them, at least in the high end pieces. I don't really see how they were treated any different from Japanese swords. Japanese swords didn't have the complex hamons and polishes right from the start either. At some point they started experimenting with it, eventually resulting in what we see today. Considering that pretty much every other technique used in Japanese swords, is present in langsaxes and more, I see no reason why they wouldn't have been manipulating hamons and making them show by etching and polishing techniques, at least for the high end examples. Thanks for posting that Jeroen, I wanted to add something along the lines, particularly after helping out on a classics dissertation on the subject and having had to digest an ample bibliography related to it but perhaps my lack of portfolio on the "bladesmithing" department seems to take weight away from whatever I can add around here. In any case I'm sure Jeff can represent properly the academic sources and studies around here, like he told me once, just check any good book for the bibliography and then get them, read them and so on and on and on. Which I continue to keep doing. Grey hair and alopecia are signs of age, not of wisdom... Rósta að, maðr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Mr. Zuiderwij: In regards to my statement..I am talking about everyday "working tools" something that was made to be used..NOT the "higher end" pieces...Sorry of there was a misunderstanding there. Yes, I agree that this is something that could be done, and probaly was on alot of the pieces that eventually went into graves, but on every day working pieces? Granted the same can be said about the Japanese and their blades as well, but would someone kindly tell me why/how the Japanese sword got all the hype? I have my own theories on that, just wondering what other folks think. Could the "Old Men" play around with hardening zones? Sure..the lack of Mn would be a real treat for that...Right now I am playing about with using a hybrid of stainless steel and high carbon components using the old laminate techniques and that is proving to be a real pain but so far the results are promising. Once I get this figured out I will turn to zone hardening on these....I should have the first of the test pieces of high carbon and stainless "hybrid" (the SS is used for a "colour laminate" only) done here in the next week or so...Once I get better (finer grained) wrought iron in I will start to play about with the lines on Mn free materials...once RPFS is done and I have more time to putter about and not have to put meat on the table... JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeroen Zuiderwijk Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Mr. Zuiderwij: In regards to my statement..I am talking about everyday "working tools" something that was made to be used..NOT the "higher end" pieces...Sorry of there was a misunderstanding there. Yes, I agree that this is something that could be done, and probaly was on alot of the pieces that eventually went into graves, but on every day working pieces? I don't know any examples that could be considered as such. The thousands of saxes I've seen are all from graves usually containing many other weapons, and a few examples from river finds. Broken back saxes are a different matter though. They seem to have had a more civilian role. These frequently share the high end constructions of langsaxes though. There are some big sized knives from the same period that are probably working knives, but they're very different from saxes. Granted the same can be said about the Japanese and their blades as well, but would someone kindly tell me why/how the Japanese sword got all the hype? I have my own theories on that, just wondering what other folks think. I'm no Japanese sword expert. But it would be partially because it's the only surviving sword making tradition, the Japanese considering them the best swords in the world (though they're somewhat biased naturally), and the big hollywood hyping. Then there's plenty of self proclaimed Japanese sword experts that keep calling Japanese swords the best swords ever made, while most have never seen another sword in their life. And on top of that, Japanese sword making techniques get revered for all the techniques that are not at all unique to Japanese sword making at all. Jeroen Zuiderwijk Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/barbarianmetalworking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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