JPH 146 Posted March 8, 2009 Mr. Zuiderwijk: in response: <<I'm no Japanese sword expert. But it would be partially because it's the only surviving sword making tradition, the Japanese considering them the best swords in the world (though they're somewhat biased naturally), and the big hollywood hyping. Then there's plenty of self proclaimed Japanese sword experts that keep calling Japanese swords the best swords ever made, while most have never seen another sword in their life. And on top of that, Japanese sword making techniques get revered for all the techniques that are not at all unique to Japanese sword making at all.>> Yeah....that's pretty much the way I feel about it. When you look at the "old" European blades, multi core laminate, composite construction, those "Old Masters" were doing much more sophiscated forgings that the Japanese ever did, and 1000 years earlier. But the Japanese did enjoy the luxury of time to tweak and evolve thier sword far longer that the European smiths did. The Japanese found a basic design and pretty much stuck with it for what? 600 years or so? As I always said...there is a finite number of ways ot make a sword (or knife)...Since we were discussing Seaxes..Look at the so called "American" Bowie knife. It's a Seax...and yet everthing that looks like a "Bowie" is called one...Sigh.... No..the Japanese sword is so surrounded by all sorts of myth, hype and exagerations that it is, to me a total "turn off". The European blades, well when you look at these old relics, you can see how crafty and how well these men knew how to work steel. I just wish I could see one brand new. THAT would answer a lot of questions, at least for me.. UPDATE: The Stainless steel/high carbon composite blade I am experimenting on survived heat treating and has been ground. Looks solid so far, only one small "pit" the size of a pinhead in the welds which I think could be from the cast iron I used to encase the faggot while welding (I use a technique that both Mr Cleston Sinyard and myself both "discovered" at the same basic time back in the late 1970's as far as forge welding stainless steel in an atmoshperic forge oputside of a "can"). Now I have to etch and see what I have pattern wise... Anyway...back to Japanese swords... While the Japanese "Masters" were good at what they did, the European "Masters" were much better, at least to my eyes....Both swords worked, but I am just drawn to the European methods more than the Japanese ones... JPH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Sheffield 3 Posted March 8, 2009 I have said for quite some time now, the bowie is the bastard son of the seax. I will play devils advocate on the eastern vs occidental sword thing. Don't the Japanese prefer to show off the hamon as to what the hada looks like? So maybe they chose (in the past I mean) to not have awesome patterns in the hada that would distract from the hamon. Much like I don't like to put a hamon on any pattern other than random in the knives I make. I hate to have this line going through my pretty pattern...AND I hate having all those crazy wavy lines interfering with my hamon. I IMHO don't think they mesh well together. So maybe they just chose not to have the patterns not that they didn't know how to make them. Maybe the Norse smiths knew how to make hamon. They just chose to go a different route...maybe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JPH 146 Posted March 8, 2009 Mr. Sheffield: The hada is pretty well "displayed" as well on a full polish..the Japanese smiths, from all that I can tell really didn't go into the "patterning" as much as the European smiths did, they (the Japanese smiths) were simply trying to make decent material out of low quality raw materials, and they did... The Japanese did understand composite construction methods, that is evident by the pieces they made, they just weren't into "showing off" what they could do..To me..If i put THAT much work into a blade I want to SEE the pattern..Even my Japanese style/inspired stuff..I do a light etch to show the Hada... Now I do not know if the Old Masters in Europe polished to reveal a hardening line or not..maybe they did..maybe they didn't...was a hardening line there? If they went for a hard edge/soft(er) back..probably so..That is one question that may never be answered... JPH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ty Murch 1 Posted March 9, 2009 well this "has been" a "good thread" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Pringle 5 Posted March 9, 2009 Bowie, did some one say bowie? Check out this sax from Gotland, mid 7th C: More beard kindling! Two additional serpents and note the sword on the left, nice combotwist on that one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
J.Arthur Loose 38 Posted March 9, 2009 I'd love to meet those babes in person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 1,486 Posted March 9, 2009 I'd love to meet those babes in person. Damn skippy! Had another thought about the serpent thing: Reckon it could be overlay? Or inlay, like the later PW signatures on Ulfbehrt or Ingelrii blades? That was my first thought on seeing that one from Finland in the back of Swords of the Viking Age. That particular one in the book where the central core of twists suddenly becomes an overlaid-looking serpent suggested the idea. That would be a good bit easier than some of the ways it could have been done, but never having had one in my hot-and-sweaty little hands that kind of speculation is all I can do, along with experimentation, of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
owen bush 169 Posted March 9, 2009 London's burning (my beard is burning) Fetch the engine (fetch the engine) Fire, Fire (fire, fire) Pour on water (pour on petrol). Burn baby burn .................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JPH 146 Posted March 9, 2009 Hello! On the Bowie/Seax.. Sure looks like a Bowie knife to me....hummmm maybe that rascal James Bowie went to Europe and copied the design?? He was one "colourful character" for sure...that sandbar fight is legendary. Swords...maybe the serpent is an overlay/inlay, that would be much easier than working it into the pattern during construction...Boy I wish we could get ahold of one that wasn't all corroded..I would surely love to see one brand new... JPH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unclemike13 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Serpent inlay? Like this? Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jared Stier 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Serpent inlay? Like this? Michael dude...thats just cool Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JPH 146 Posted March 10, 2009 Uncle Mike: THAT is SPIFFY.....how about a photo of ther whole thing?? Too groovey for words.... JPH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
owen bush 169 Posted March 10, 2009 the snake head is the best bit ,quite exelent . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unclemike13 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Thanks! That was one of my"nightmare" projects of last year. This one was try number six - it all worked so I finished it. Here is a picture of the whole package. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeroen Zuiderwijk 204 Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Hello! On the Bowie/Seax.. Sure looks like a Bowie knife to me....hummmm maybe that rascal James Bowie went to Europe and copied the design?? The clipped point/broken back shaped blades show up regularly since the introduction of single edged blades. I guess it's a matter of coevolution. Here' s the earliest I know, a bronze age knife from Poland: Edited March 10, 2009 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Sheffield 3 Posted March 10, 2009 Sorry I messed up the thread Ty. DAMN that snake looks SWEET Michael!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GEzell 131 Posted March 11, 2009 The clipped point/broken back shaped blades show up regularly since the introduction of single edged blades. I guess it's a matter of coevolution. Here' s the earliest I know, a bronze age knife from Poland: I bet there's some made of flint or obsidian out there, somewhere... There's only so many ways to bring a blade to a point, and it's a good one as any. Awesome snake Unclemike13! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Pringle 5 Posted March 15, 2009 Excellent serpent Michael! I got most of my forging done on Thursday, this is what the pattern looks like now – what do you think, similar to the drawing? (yes, we should locate the artifacts and get photos of them instead of trusting the drawing to be accurate – though Ypey did a phenomenal job AFAIK): I think that the sword from Finland and the serpent blade on the right in that Ypey drawing were free-hand forged into a wave and welded down, the fragment from Rhenen and the serpent on the left were done by this ‘other method’ I’ll reveal if there are no more theories out there. Anyone else got photos/drawings of other artifacts with this pattern? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeroen Zuiderwijk 204 Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) Excellent serpent Michael! I got most of my forging done on Thursday, this is what the pattern looks like now – what do you think, similar to the drawing? Yup, looking great (yes, we should locate the artifacts and get photos of them instead of trusting the drawing to be accurate – though Ypey did a phenomenal job AFAIK):I think that the sword from Finland and the serpent blade on the right in that Ypey drawing were free-hand forged into a wave and welded down, the fragment from Rhenen and the serpent on the left were done by this ‘other method’ I’ll reveal if there are no more theories out there. Well, I can think of two alternative ways to Ypey how you might have done the serpent Anyone else got photos/drawings of other artifacts with this pattern? I've got this photo of a sword with a welded on serpent, very similar to one from the Waal, in the picture on the right: Edited March 15, 2009 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeroen Zuiderwijk 204 Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) While on the subject of patternwelding, here's a sword that I've got to have reproduced someday (either commisioned or by myself). I'm not entirely sure on how the patternwelding is actually done. Initially I thought it was just three solid billets of torsion damast. But today I took a close look again, and it looks like there is an iron core in this one. But what's odd is that the pattern is undistorted lines, and they seem to go all the way to the core. So it seems like the billets were ground down to way more then half the original thickness of the billets, getting to the other side and revealing the linear pattern again. Any ideas? Edited March 15, 2009 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Sheffield 3 Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Holy crap Jeff! That turned out sweet. I can't wait until I can produce some cool patterns. Edited March 16, 2009 by Mike Sheffield Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antoine 0 Posted March 16, 2009 Excellent serpent Michael! I got most of my forging done on Thursday, this is what the pattern looks like now – what do you think, similar to the drawing? (yes, we should locate the artifacts and get photos of them instead of trusting the drawing to be accurate – though Ypey did a phenomenal job AFAIK): I think that the sword from Finland and the serpent blade on the right in that Ypey drawing were free-hand forged into a wave and welded down, the fragment from Rhenen and the serpent on the left were done by this ‘other method’ I’ll reveal if there are no more theories out there. Anyone else got photos/drawings of other artifacts with this pattern? Wonderful sword Jeff! Could it be done by welding pieces of iron, maybe half round, perpendicular to the patterned bar? Antoine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 1,486 Posted March 16, 2009 Wonderful sword Jeff!Could it be done by welding pieces of iron, maybe half round, perpendicular to the patterned bar? Antoine That was my thought. Nice pattern, Jeff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GEzell 131 Posted March 16, 2009 Alright, I'm probably wrong but here's my best guess. A low layer bar, twisted 45 degrees, back and forth, then forged flat and welded to the rest of it. Kinda an interrupted partial reverse twist... I'm out of propane or I'd try it myself to see if it works. The good thing about this method (if it works), no stock removal necessary to achieve the pattern. Jeroen, honestly I do not know. I like to think stock removal was kept to a minimum when they made these patterns, perhaps instead of grinding away the majority of the bar, the bar was split, maybe multiple slices removed to achieve it. This would allow for less waste than grinding it away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeroen Zuiderwijk 204 Posted March 16, 2009 Jeroen, honestly I do not know. I like to think stock removal was kept to a minimum when they made these patterns, perhaps instead of grinding away the majority of the bar, the bar was split, maybe multiple slices removed to achieve it. This would allow for less waste than grinding it away. True. But you have to consider the sword is very thin, only 3-4mm thick (currently, probably would have lost some due to corrosion). Considering a core, and a layer of patternwelding on each side, the patternwelded layer is 1.5mm at most. In my experience you need to remove around 2-3mm of the total thickness of a blade to remove the scale and pitting, so it's not that unthinkable IMO that they ground away the majority of the billets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
