Is your beard still burning ?????

[Jeff Pringle 8]

Jeroen, are you thinking it has an iron core from the longitudinal splitting at the tip, or do you have other photos of the sword? I presume you’ve seen it in person, which would be more helpful in figuring it out. Visually, there is not much info to guess from in that shot, and it looks ambiguous to me.

The serpent in my blade was done by twisting, a tight series of left and right 90° twists which I then re-squared on the corner. This gives you the sine wave on two faces, and opposing “c” figures on the other two. GEzell gets the closest-approximation prize! Since the dark age smiths relied on twisting for most of their patterning, and did a lot of alternate twisting of bars, it fits with the processes in use at the time and wastes no more material than a solid twist. The pattern could have been done by some of those other methods, but they seem less likely to have been used "back in the day" IMHO.

I did a sword back in 2002 with a central bar of back-and-forth 180° twists, thinking that was the answer, then worked out how to REALLY do it on some practice bars, one of which I still have kicking around – I’ll take a photo so you can see what the bar looks like as you twist it.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk 322]

Jeroen, are you thinking it has an iron core from the longitudinal splitting at the tip, or do you have other photos of the sword? I presume you’ve seen it in person, which would be more helpful in figuring it out. Visually, there is not much info to guess from in that shot, and it looks ambiguous to me.

I don't have a photo that shows it more clearly unfortunately. But it clearly has a strip of non-patternwelded iron just below the lines of the patternwelded billets. I stood by the sword for about an hour or so, just to make sure I wouldn't miss any detail:) I've got to arrange to see the sword without the glass, and with better lighting in the near future.

 

The serpent in my blade was done by twisting, a tight series of left and right 90° twists which I then re-squared on the corner. This gives you the sine wave on two faces, and opposing “c” figures on the other two. GEzell gets the closest-approximation prize!

Ah, that was one of the two I had in mind:) The other is a strip of iron or steel and weld a wavy billet on top similar to the Waal sword, but done on the billet rather then on the sword itself. What creates the C-pattern on the other side b.t.w.? I'd expect the same serpent there?

[GEzell 143]

The serpent in my blade was done by twisting, a tight series of left and right twists which I then re-squared on the corner. This gives you the sine wave on two faces, and opposing “c” figures on the other two. GEzell gets the closest-approximation prize! Since the dark age smiths relied on twisting for most of their patterning, and did a lot of alternate twisting of bars, it fits with the processes in use at the time and wastes no more material than a solid twist. The pattern could have been done by some of those other methods, but they seem less likely to have been used "back in the day" IMHO.

Woohoo! 90° instead of 45°, and you did a much better job explaining it...

 

Since the dark age smiths relied on twisting for most of their patterning, and did a lot of alternate twisting of bars, it fits with the processes in use at the time and wastes no more material than a solid twist. The pattern could have been done by some of those other methods, but they seem less likely to have been used "back in the day" IMHO.

That's what I was thinking, a variation on a technique that was already familiar to the dark-age smith.

The 180° counter-twists look rather cool, too.

[Jeff Pringle 8]

What creates the C-pattern on the other side b.t.w.? I'd expect the same serpent there?

I think it is because the bar faces that show the layers have a stronger visual impact, so the single-metal faces read as negative space.

A refinement of the pattern worth checking out would be to use thicker layers of low carbon on the top and bottom of the stack, a little experimenting and you could have the serpent more cleanly set off from the bars on either side.

[Greg Thomas Obach 6]

brilliant

thanks Jeff.. your explanation is very cool !!!

[J.Arthur Loose 222]

~

Ding!

[Brian Shafer 0]

I love this forum.

[owen bush 293]

Freed up the the front piston of my monolithic alldays and onions 3 hundred weight today (I have been saving that job for a sunny day for18 months!),its all looking pretty good .I have been holding back from looking at it cos I knew as soon as I got into it my beard would ........

 

.... BURN !

 

now I just have to free up the valve (which is half way out and looking good) I am then faced with the do I - Dont I question .

do I install it (I may be moving in 2 or 3 years ) or dont I ?

 

Install or not install ?

£1000 worth of concrete and crane or not ?

Beard burning or just smouldering ?

[GEzell 143]

Freed up the the front piston of my monolithic alldays and onions 3 hundred weight today (I have been saving that job for a sunny day for18 months!),its all looking pretty good .I have been holding back from looking at it cos I knew as soon as I got into it my beard would ........

 

.... BURN !

 

now I just have to free up the valve (which is half way out and looking good) I am then faced with the do I - Dont I question .

do I install it (I may be moving in 2 or 3 years ) or dont I ?

 

Install or not install ?

£1000 worth of concrete and crane or not ?

Beard burning or just smouldering ?

Let it burn!

 

(we want pics)

[musasioO 0]

Hi jeff, I am a french student and I have to write a report on the evolution of blades forging techniques. I would like to know if its possible to sent me a copy of "La fabrication des épées damassées aux époques mérovingiennes et carolingienne". Thanks!

[MJDForge 0]

No beard, but my eyebrows are alight!

[J. Helmes 1]

i actually set my beard alight today...on a job site...with an angle grinder. hmmm ...so thankfully...no........my beard is curently not still burning.

Edited June 25, 2009 by J. Helmes

[Brent L 0]

Jeff I could definately see you doing that...

[owen bush 293]

Today I forged the fire grate for a kings bedroom , Alas the king is long dead but his bedroom is burning!!!!!!!

 

 

I am running afire , dancing over heated cauldrons and past the kitchen into the Dusk .

alas due to ownership issues I can't post piccies untill August ....................(caldrons ,fires and the rest )

 

I should have pictures of the dusk before then (but not before dawn!!!)

 

Keep your fires lit!!!

[Jim P 0]

I got to light my new forge and actually do some work for the first time in ah........ 6 years?

I got to try out my newer anvil and it's better than I would of thought. The fire almost went out, but it's burning now. It's going to be in the 100's for a couple of days, so I'll clean up the shop, but next Friday I'll be at it again. It was a great feeling. Jim

[owen bush 293]

I just ha a most wonderful day at the museum of london backrooms........rondels ballocks and swords of all kinds .all very interesting .a lot of it etched (by a previous collector owner ) and its heartening to see all the piled steel construction in late medieval stuff .

great day .

[Alan Longmire 3,877]

Pictures, you lucky bastard, pictures!!!!

 

I'm envious, man!

[John N 326]

I wonder if the beard starts to smoulder when you dabble with the pattern welded seax???

 

a couple of months ago I knocked this from some wrought iron and a file..... its not been finished yet as my mind was drawn to something longer, and a little more complicated...

 

 

anyhoo, I find myself with a pile of twisted bars awaiting welding to pop my sword cherry and thought I would try somthing interesting for the edge bars

 

Jeff, Thank you for pictures and description of the serpent twists, I have had a go myself, and at rough grind and etch it would appear it works beautifully. I sandwiched a twisted bar for the serpent inside 80 layers of straight with the results below,. this twisting pattern certainly makes your head a little

 

The distortion to the edges of the straight lamintate is from knocking the ridges from twisting back in, hopefully it will all tidy its self up once the grinding commences! Ill show it again in the event of all the bars sticking together in a week or two! Im hopeful that the 4' of this pattern will be my edging strips!

 

Edited November 24, 2009 by John N

[owen bush 293]

Dang

 

If I lived in the middle of know where I would be grinding that midnight hour away and forging till dawn .....smolder..... smolder...... smolder.........

[nakedanvil 0]

Didn't know what it was all about when I did my avatar. Hope that's OK. Here's my hand hammer, now I'm looking for just the right rock. Brent Bailey made it for me. We'd been talking about early hammer development.

 

Edited November 27, 2011 by nakedanvil

[Ito Matsumoto 0]

My beard is brighter than the Sun. To repay her impossible and it will burn until I am alive.

[James Spurgeon 23]

Question.. Have you tried welding the edging to the two outter cores, then welding the two edges/outter cores together with the centre core in between the two previously welded core sides?? I have done that a few times and it presents an entirely different set of patterning problems....

 

UH-OH...

I'm in trouble now.

That comment has my head spinning, mentally redesigning a blade I have been planning to make...

 

Dave Stephens' Arctic Fire 2012 test video on crushed Ws focused my innumerable plans for a serious pattern welded blade. So began my scheming to create a large dagger or short sword with his crushed W Explosion pattern.

 

Then I lucked into a copy of Jim Hrisoulas' book The Pattern-Welded Blade (in addition to the Complete Bladesmith which was already on my shelf of bladesmithing books) and that plan morphed into a migration era 4 core Viking sword. The cores will start as 32ish layers of Dave's crushed W pattern with an interupted twist counter twist. Stack the cores, aligning the twists on the inner and outer core pairs and then wrapping with a "subtle" 550 layer monosteel edge.

 

I remain with that final product in mind, but Jim H's comment above on stacking the outer cores and edge then wrapping those around the inner core sent me in a totaly different conceptualization for the process:

I may be picturing it wrong, but like the idea of forging the edge bar to the outer cores and then wrapping both arround the inner core(s). The difficulty I forsee is the potential for sheering between the outer cores and edge wrap since they would end up with different radii at the tip. Leaving a gap between the cores where they meet for the tip, or grinding a gap in after welding, seems to be the obvious work arround for that, though I imagine it might increase difficulties in keeping the tip weld clean.

My brain is now compelled to chase this concept a bit further and quite possibly into the absurd:

 

What if a 4 core blade was built up with 3 bars rather like a long 2 core Seax.

Please forgive the "MS Paint" graphics...

Then grind a wide dovetail notch through the center of the cores. (since a V notch would leave the core lengths backwards)

Finally fold it latterally and weld from the tip back...

The first weld would be rather long, but I am comfortable with that. After that step though I enter uncharted territory and may actually be making things harder, not sure...

 

I made a pocket knife for myself a couple years ago starting out with 9 x 3/16th spring wires 18 inches long. I twisted them together then weld, fold, repeat... until I had the same 550 layers of monosteel I intend for the edge. This pic was taken today, after the knife has been riding in my hip pocket for almost 2 years. (edit: full disclosure I did strop it a few strokes on some 1000 grit paper right before taking the pic...)

 

I have also made knives of pattern welded chainsaw chain and of 5160 with L6, which is what I intend for the cores. Sorry no pic handy

But I am still working on my first blade with any serious pattern manipulation, a Gordian Knot pattern dagger of 5160/L6.

So I would love any feedback and advice you all care to give!

I gotsta get out to the forege now or I won't sleep tonight...

James

Edited June 27, 2013 by James Spurgeon

[Tom Koch 0]

I make no claims to be a Blacksmith, only a lowly Ironworker, but my beard is constantly getting burned at work. Not the best smell imo har!

 

I'm looking forward to the day when it just lights up and stays lit like some of your avatars. Must make picking up ladies at the bar much more interesting.

[Kevin Colwell 171]

OK, this comment comes long after the original post (and my beard has been more of a Manchu Mustache these last few years). Still, the making of a serpentine core by twisting is Brilliant! I wish I had read that comment before I started my current jian.

 

I have to counter-twisted cores and two edge bars, for a pattern that was popular in the Ming. I don't know if they did serpents. but I would have tried to talk the customer into it.

 

Any major breakthroughs on the wolf's tooth, other than forging the notches in and forging a softer (wi) bar to mold to the notches? These were used on daos, where they were called, "horse's teeth," but it was the same pattern.

 

You guys are great. The only club that I know of that I actually respect the membership (maybe the ABS, but not as much!).

[Emiliano Carrillo 290]

Oooooh Kevin, you wouldn't happen to have any reference photos of swords with the twist cores and some of the horse teeth weld do you? I'd love to see how they're done! I've never seen a full length sword with that sort of weld.

 

I've done some looking into it, and the best result (only result) I've gotten so far is this:

 

 

Forged the teeth in while hot and then welded the whole thing together.