Doug Lester Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I may be wrong (I know that my three ex-wives must have just fainted) but it looks like a case where the theory is rather straight forward and probably hit on in earlier posts. It's the execution that gets complicated. A lot of that kind of thing needs to be taught hands on with an instructor looking over one's shoulder. Yes, someone could take the theory and with hard work and the expenditure of money work things out or get and/or pay someone who knows the techniques to teach them. Doug HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Yes, someone could take the theory and with hard work and the expenditure of money work things out Indeed, that's how it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I may be wrong (I know that my three ex-wives must have just fainted) but it looks like a case where the theory is rather straight forward and probably hit on in earlier posts. It's the execution that gets complicated. A lot of that kind of thing needs to be taught hands on with an instructor looking over one's shoulder. Yes, someone could take the theory and with hard work and the expenditure of money work things out or get and/or pay someone who knows the techniques to teach them. Doug Isn't that called "life"? What is it Mike Blue says...."In THEORY..theory and practice is the same...In PRACTICE they are not" Doung..I like the first bit you wrote above quite a lot... Ric Richard Furrer Door County Forgeworks Sturgeon Bay, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lester Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Ric, I like your quote from Mike Blue. It's all too often quite true. Doug HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Armour Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 "What is it Mike Blue says...."In THEORY..theory and practice is the same...In PRACTICE they are not"" That has to be one of the truest statements of all time. Ah, Naptime-- The Early Childhood Teacher's Best Friend www.armourcutlery.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhobson Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I am very thankful to Howard that he didn't just cough up the answer when asked. Instead, he was hugely helpful in leading me amd others towards an understanding which would not have been as complete if I hadn't had to put in the effort. I don't know if it is intended (probably is, because he is such a nice bloke) but he helps people like me more by not giving out the answer directly. It is a fantasically inspiring goal, and further inspiring when you know the answer (or think you do - he has never told me). I don't think it is a 'secret' but it really doesn't seem to be explained anywhere on the web which is amazing considering how long it has been done - another mark of respect that the community has for Howard. This thread is probably as close as it gets... maybe too close - I'm glad I've already been inspired to do the homework. So, please, for people like me in the future, if you guess then don't blurt it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Sexstone Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 this thread reminds me of a joke you all have heard in maybe different versions, about the guy getting his " thing" fixed... the smith says that will be $51 ... $51 ? says the guy how so much? it only took one hit.... the smith says .. yes that's correct ... it's $1 for hitting it once... there other $50 is for knowing where to hit it... It makes me laugh even telling it poorly... and it's not my joke so I can laugh all I want Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert George Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I am very thankful to Howard that he didn't just cough up the answer when asked. Instead, he was hugely helpful in leading me amd others towards an understanding which would not have been as complete if I hadn't had to put in the effort. I don't know if it is intended (probably is, because he is such a nice bloke) but he helps people like me more by not giving out the answer directly. It is a fantasically inspiring goal, and further inspiring when you know the answer (or think you do - he has never told me). Indeed! Ironic that a couple centuries ago, a competitor would get their hand cut off for putting it in Muramasa's quench tank. But nowadays some folks expect their modern counterparts to just post step-by-step directions to replicate processes that took them decades to discover by trial and error. Howard has described major parts of the process in detail. I have a pretty good idea of the concepts involved in making a bainite blade with a martensite edge, but the Devil's in the Details... Like Howard's signature used to say: it's the journey, not the destination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John N Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 its trying to work out a lot of this stuff that keeps in intersting for me ! Over the past three or four years Ive been playing with hot metal ive found that the more I do myself, the more people are willing to help me, sometimes not by directly telling me, but gentle pointers in the right direction by asking me questions that set a little flicker of a lightbulb going above my head! Maybe one day Ill have a few processes worked out that wont be in the public domain and Ill recipricate the generosity of knowledge thats helped me on the way! thats what its all about as far as I see it. (some of my current ideas are so insane they might just work, 6 months ago I wouldnt have thought I could patternweld stainess from start to finish in less than 60 seconds , now wheres the phone number for BOC? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie le Roux Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) John N - I agree wholeheartedly! It has always amazed me to see how much hard earned knowledge people are kind enough to share on forums like these. You can find more than enough on any topic I can think of to have the necessary background theory and be well on your way to gaining practical personal experience, which I believe is critical to true understanding and healthy learning. There are very good procedures to follow out there that enable you to create excellent work, but it would be fair to say you should expect to have to go a step further in the direction of working at mastering your trade to be the best or at the cutting edge. We should all be very thankful for the opportunities to learn given to us in discussions like these, contributed to by the wonderful people hosting and posting on this and other forums. Thank you all very much. Edited: tendency to ramble is a serious illness. Edited July 5, 2011 by Bertie le Roux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qiangluo Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 there are several ways to get matensite edge with a bainite spine. high frequency induction hardening equipments is not so hard to find these days, it can do the job. it heat fast, and more likely only heat the surface(2~6mm deep). the heating depth is decided by the frequency you choose. depends on the power of the quenching gear, it takes 2~5 seconds to heat the thin edge section to over 900°C while the spine of the blade still cold. or you can just do the tradition coating methods. first get the full blade low bainite. then coat it with high temperature ceramic coatings. those can be find in refractory material store. heat the blade within the 1200~1300°C liquid lead for a few seconds. pull it back and forth to see the color change until it reach the desired hardening temperature. you might need a little bit thicker coating near the sword tip since this section is more like to be over heated using this method. but doing this is kind of dangerous, since lead is poisonous. english is not my native lanauage, i hope you can understand my point. by the way, i am new to the forum. says hello to everyone here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie le Roux Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yup - more than one way there certainly is... I guess what it comes down to is gaining the knowledge and experience and having the dedication to start doing it, getting results, and then being able to properly study and interpret these result in order to get an idea of whether you are doing a good job yet, and if not, how you could try to improve. In broad terms, making bainite or martensite or combinations of the two is not difficult. But both of these structures (not to mention combinations) have very variable properties depending on what exactly you have done, so doing it in a way that gives excellent or even usefull results may be another matter altogether. Figuring out the basic way in which something is done is an essential (and often the most exciting) step, but only the first of several. :0) I like this (paraphrased) quote: "Only in theory is there no difference between practice and theory" So, for making a blade with a differential structure of bainite and martensite, combined in a usefull way, you probably need to first have a good understanding of each of the separate aspects, including: properties and thermodynamics of bainite properties and thermodynamics of martensite properties and the production of blades with differential microstructures ...and then, last but by no means least - actually doing it! :0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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