Geoff Keyes Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 As an experiment to see if I could make it work, I tried to make some mokume-gane. What I have is a block of 13 layers, 16 gage copper and nickel about 2 x 3 inches and an inch thick. The welds look good, so now what do I do? I don't have a press or a rolling mill that will handle a block this size. Should I cut into pieces? Should I hammer it to size, should I pattern it first, hand hammer or power, I've got a 50 lb hammer at my disposal? How often should I anneal it? Some advice would be helpful. Thanks in advance Geoff "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else." I said that. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - - -G. K. Chesterton So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy. Grant Sarver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFogg Posted October 24, 2003 Author Share Posted October 24, 2003 What do you want to make? I am not sure how it will work so you are going to have to ease into it to see how much work you can do before it shears. Bill Fiorini teaches to forged bevels on the sides of the billet then forge the middle down. Anneal frequently. There are several good books on mokume and I would recommend picking up one Mokume Gane in the Small Shop by Steve Midgett is a good one. There are several good online resources Ganoskin has lots of jeweller tutorials and resources. Also check my links pages for others. Don Fogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Hot forge it down by hand, patterning as you go. Some combinations lend themselves to hot forging and some don't. Any comination with brass doesn't lend itself to hot forging, but the copper and nickel, (or is it nickel silver?), either way, should be fine for hot forging as long as the joints are tight. Don't take it above a cherry red or dull orange. If you get it too hot and the surface looks wet, don't hammer on it. If it starts to crack along the edges forge it at lower temps, even a black heat is better than cold. If it startes to delaminate along the edges, just go easy, trim them off, or melt them shut with a torch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Tai- Is that correct that you dont hot forge any combination with brass ? So if I do brass and copper should I break it down all cold ? Zoe Zoe Crist Knives Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Don't use brass. Some of it is even too britlle to cold forge well and will tend to shear apart. It also melts easy. I'm not saying brass won't work, it's just not known for it's maleability. It's a better material for machining, fabricating or casting. There maybe alloys of brass that would work better than others, but I have never found any that I really liked. I recommend using a hot forging bronze alloy instead. I've always prefered fine silver over sterling for the same reasons. It's more maleable and hot works better. If you keep the billet all hot forgable, I think it's a lot easier in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 cool.. very much thanks Zoe Zoe Crist Knives Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 As a general rule, pure metals are more malleable and hot work better than alloys. Alloys tend to be hard, brittle and melt at lower temps which make them less suitable for hot work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 great .. thanks for all the help, I'm absorbing all I can into one brain. I guess if it gets full I will need to get another one what are you favorite combinations ?? and what are the most economical combinations to start out with ?? Zoe Zoe Crist Knives Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Thanks for the advice. I'd like to do several things with it. I'd like to make some jewelry, and I'd like to have some 1/4" (ish) stock for guards and suchlike. The nickel is nickel/silver, 18% nickel, which I bought from R.J. Leahy Co. They've got sheet, wire, nails, rivets and other good stuff in iron, aluminum, copper, brass, and nickel, and they sell in small quantities to folks like me. I'm going to saw off a strip to experiment with, I'll let you know how I get on. Geoff "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else." I said that. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - - -G. K. Chesterton So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy. Grant Sarver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Just one more though. How about twisting? It sounds like dull red is the way to go. Should I round it off to keep from shearing the layers? I think two extra brains are going to be needed, then you need to have an index, so you can find the one with the info you need. G "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else." I said that. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - - -G. K. Chesterton So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy. Grant Sarver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I think the copper and nickel silver is a great combo to start with. The only problem with it is that the welds are not normally as strong as with real silver. All this means is that you may not be able to stress it against the grain as much. As far as favorite materials, gold, silver and copper are the standard. If you use alloys, milder alloys work best as they retain more malleability and hot workability. If you try silver keep in mind that it will melt at a much lower temp than nickel silver and the inside of the forge need not be as hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 If you are going to twist it, I think rounding the corners off first is best, but it will change the pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFogg Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Check out James Binion He has some nice photos and links to articles on mokume. Don Fogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kelso Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Here's a link to a mokume primer by the Pijanowskis.(Eugene & Hiroko Sato). It has some interesting historical data. They have done a lot of research. Woodgrained metal:Mokume-gane Also at the bottom there is a quick explanation of the basic rokusho patination under "Coloring of Kuromido". This basicly applies to the other alloys as well. Also, they list themselves as suppliers of rokusho, but when I call the number has been busy for 24 hours. [dunno] I don't do mokume so can't really say much except Gene and Hiroko have been at this a long, long time. My website and INSTAGRAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFogg Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Great link Jim, but for some reason it added the ikon board address before it. I have no idea why or how this program works and would welcome any help from the knowledgeable. Mokume I encourage you to go to the home page after you read this article. Don Fogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Norris Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Geoff: when you say "welded" what do you mean? I.e., is this mokume made with the diffusion welding process or have you used solder. The reason that I ask is that the two will behave differently. Mokume Gane will have as a limitation the lowest melting point of the materials used. Soldered Mokume Gane thus has a lower melting point, that of the solder. One more thing, most nonferrous alloys are annealled by heating to red hot then quenching in water - the opposite of ferrous metals. “All work is empty save when there is love, for work is love made visible.” Kahlil Gibran "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them." - Alfred Adler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Zowada Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I don't mean to dissagree with Tai. He's smart and knows a lot about this stuff. But... I use brass all the time.You just have to work it below about 1500F. Also it is best to stick to "yellow" and "cartridge" brass. they are UNS 2700 and UNS 26000. I think. Give it a try. The worst that can happen is a blob in the bottom of the forge. :banghead: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tai Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Hi Tim. It's been a long time bro. Sounds like you have had better luck with brass than me. Thanks for the alloys there. Tim's pretty smart too, if he says those alloys work, it might be worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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