Work in Progress

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi all

 

just wonderin if theres any fulad wootz being forged out there...

 

heres what i'm up to... its a biggun

 

the bar turned out to be 46 and 1/2 inches

 

now with a prayer it'll come out with forging

 

 

 

the bevels are forged in.... the blade was shaped over the anvil... .. after grinding and heat treatment .. I can say no more good about it till its done..

 

 

what are you guys up to..

 

take care

Greg

[Cyrus]

Very impressive Greg,

 

I am still pounding on my ingot and I wish it will turn out into a nice shamshir. Have been to Uli Hennickes place this weekend and we did a nice melt. He is going for a shamshir blade.

Is the tang always shaped like this? I thought that I have seen a normal tang somewhere.

 

Good luck with the blade, Cyrus

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Cyrus

 

that is good news... i hope Uli goes for a shamshir with nice curve !

 

take you time with the ingot... its a huge effort to make a shamshir but well worth it when its done.... but just remember to say nothing good about the fulad or wootz till its done... some how it listens.. and it will teach you a lesson if you say nice things about it....

 

 

Cyrus... you are correct... most shamshir have a small wrought iron tang that is forge welded onto the blade... ..then they attached a framed handle to that .... it will extent down to the curve and into the kollah... that inner frame/subframe is also what the tangbands or ahanak is soldered to..

 

i'm afraid i've only seen very few shamshir with a solid tang like i make... my reasons for doing it is that its quicker for me to do it this way and my bandsaw is broke... so cutting the small pieces will take forever for making the subframe..

[Cyrus]

He Greg,

 

I will not say anything to the fulad, just "Bismillah" when I start working. The frame around the little tang sounds complicated. Is the way it is fixed to the tang save? I found out what zaj-e-sefid is, the stuff that is used for glueing the bolchaq to the blade, it is Alum, an aluminum/sulpher mixture I think.

 

Best regards, Cyrus

[peter johnsson]

That shows the promise of something magnificent.

-But I will not say so aloud until you´ve finished the blade!

 

Really looking forward to see more of how this comes along.

[Jan Ysselstein]

Hi all

just wonderin if theres any fulad wootz being forged out there...

heres what i'm up to... its a biggun

the bar turned out to be 46 and 1/2 inches

what are you guys up to..

take care

Greg

 

Greg,

Wow, you are pushing beyond what I have seen in the modern wootz pursuit, fantastic!

Soon I will be at it again, right now my new furnace is under the forge hood, waiting for some more wet, foggy, drippy days, so I can finish off my charcoal for the year.

Good luck with this piece.

 

Jan

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Cyrus

i'm not really sure of zage sefid... if you have some .. does it have a sulphur smell...maybe with some heat..... I thought it maybe a tree resin combined with some white clay and abit of bees wax..... I do know that the tulwars i've worked on had a resin in there... actually i have one that is still mint with resin... its quite tough and grips the blade tightly

 

ps.. Bismillah and the clouds in the mind disappear and the swords become sharp ... besides... i talked to an older smith, and he said that the hammering of iron can bring them to the shop... but the small prayer sends them away !

 

 

Hi Peter

it was a long day of grinding and now to the bench for some polishing up to 150 ... then heat treatment... so far the blade its self was to be 3feet long if you follow the curvature... not so easy to shape when your dealing with a steel forging temperature that is so low.. but a good challenge makes it interesting

 

 

Hi Jan

sometimes the look like they may work out... but i've been on this path too many times to say anything positive till after its all done

- i did have abit left over from the initial bar... it was too long for just a shamshir... maybe a zwiehander shamshir.. wouldn't that be a strange animal .... now that i think of it, i should have given this some laddering and odd patterning but i didn't.... however i did grind it down a couple times to check how it was evolving and that is usually enough to give it some interesting shapes..... we'll have to wait n see..

 

thanks for the comments

Greg

 

 

[J. Helmes]

looks great greg..i've got to come up there and visit sometime. you going to caniron?

[Robert Mayo]

Another big one eh! It's looking good Greg .

 

Bob

[Niko Hynninen]

Sweet work Greg

 

 

It seams to have nice pattern too...reflex in last pics shows that it will be interesting..

Top work Greg

 

Niko

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi J

i'd like to go to caniron but i'm alway short on coin... next time its in ont. i'll be there.. I had so much fun with the MBA out east that i have to get back into somekind of a group..... being the only dude around up here that fiddles with forging is kinda crappy.... do you have a group down there that gets together..? ..

 

 

looks great greg..i've got to come up there and visit sometime. you going to caniron?

[Greg Thomas Obach]

thanks Robert

i would have heat treated it today if it wasn't so hot out... that would have been torture in my small garage/shop..

 

Another big one eh! It's looking good Greg .

 

Bob

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Niko

thanks.. when i polish it at 150 grit, you can see the pattern in the light... it is shows well... but how it will etch sometimes is different... i will have to wait and see... by the way, it is taking long time to sand down... steel is eating the paper

 

take care

Greg

 

 

 

 

Sweet work Greg

 

 

It seams to have nice pattern too...reflex in last pics shows that it will be interesting..

Top work Greg

 

Niko

[Sam Salvati]

Greg this is very cool, love that shape. How do you go about heat treating wootz?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Sam Salvati

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Sam

 

if you look at historical wootz/fulad ....its is a very difficult question to answer as it can run from one extreme to the other.... from slow cooling ....to fast air cooling with an air blast ( which seems to be very popular ) ....to edge quenching only in cutting area both very shallow to more.... also quench up to toranj area in wooden vat of oil and reheat 5 times till it lights wood on fire..... or placed sword in wet felt to cool... etc..

 

the written accounts are all over the place

 

restoring blades... yikes... i've seen weird stuff.... from my observations ... some Indian blades that etch very lightly in acid but hard to sand, lead me to believe it was slowly air cooled....... but they i've restored heavy tegha blades that had a hamon as the cop had a beautiful edge quenchline.. also a few tulwars like it...

shamshir i've found usually etch very dark in similar acid.... so I would tend to think those blades were cooled abit quicker... sometimes you can see quenchline run about middle of blade from cop to top of toranj ( so a very long edge quench..... other times the whole blade is dark and a quenchline is right at the toranj indicating that is were cooling stopped... obviously the left the toranj area soft so the could chisel in the toranj for gold inlay...... had an extremely wicked example of that ...it was an Assadollah and had an extemely pronouced hamon quenchline just about toranj... the blade was a very deep blue and above hamon was a light grey blue..... err...it was a problem as hamon is not a good feature on these swords... nice color and contrast is better in my opinion..

 

sorry to rattle on... i find it very interesting

 

 

by the way... I was to have this one air cool under strong airblast ( as was requested ) but i'd like to edge quench around the cop and then airblast...

 

what your cutting would be good to know... then you can select your heat treat.... i also suspect the ancient smiths did that

 

Greg

[Brent L]

Looks pretty awesome greg! As for the only group down here that I know of is the OABA group but it's not really bladesmithing. Speaking of Northland, I have to be up in the Sue for a wedding at the end of july/august the 1st. Maybe If I get time I'll swing over and you can show me some things if you'll have me.

 

Cheers, Brent

[Greg Thomas Obach]

ah yes... my shop or actually to be truthful.. a run down garage that the realestate agent said last summer added absolutely nothing to the value of the house.. zero ! amid stacks of parts, hoarded iron this and thats, broken machines, is a work small crowded work bench with a vise... which is where i sit most days sanding things.... ...theres a anvil in the middle of the floor fixed up on large stump... small gas forge.. and heat treating drum..... and a green bader in the corner by a pile of tongs.. ... theres not much to see really at the moment... I've got some plans to start a small guild up here in the north for making knives and small iron work... but first i just have to get the shop in decent viewable condition before having people over... having pink fiberglass walls is starting to really bother me... jeeez.. specially since i was out in halifax, i got to work in some shops that were post and beam... beautiful sight and really makes the soul feel good

 

I've seen the oaba groups website...but they seem all down in the GTA ... and thats way out there for me... same with the CKG... there all Toronto based and that is not at all my cup of tea... 8+ hour drive away...

 

i'm working on it ...

[Cyrus]

Hi Greg,

 

it sounds to me that you should move to a big farmhouse and a huge barn that will be turned into a smithy with forges, different anvils, grinders, flatgrinders, mills, lathe, hydraulic press and at least two Beche forging hammers, lets say a 40 kg and a 100 kg one.

Would that not be wonderful?

But comming back to your shamshir and your descriptions, you said that the Assadollah blade was blue/blackish. Would you say it is the alloys like probably Mn which makes steel darker when etched or the heattreat or the etching solution or probably everything together?

Did you try to etch with Zamk or the other stuff that the Turkish used ? Would like to get away from Fe3Cl and Nital.

 

Regards, Cyrus

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Cyrus

 

i wish with all my heart that i had such a place... however if it comes... it comes with patience....

by the way... a 100kg beche is a perfect hammer for what i have in mind... more to add to prayers.. !

 

 

yes.. mn would give a darker etch... but i find that the structure of the steel can do a good deal to increase the darkness of the etch.... also the type of acid.. ( most times you have to choose the right acid for the right sword..)

 

did you read this study by Ms. Zahra Karamad... its definitely shows a different alloy... Mo and Nb for carbide formers... one from Safavid sword with provenance .

http://www.persianmirror.com/Article_det.c...SubCategory=117

 

 

for me... i use a crazy bunch of acids.. some swords are hard to etch...others come out very darkly with just a simple treatment.... If you look, the etchs really varied from many many locations !... and i think its important to use the right acid to mimic the etch of that type of sword from the particular region... eg.. I wouldn't want to have a tulwar with jet black waterings like khorasan, it would be odd...

 

iron sulphate was used by several regions... it takes awhile to work... i had problems with it because initially i wasn't patient enough... you put the iron sulphate in a glass bowl...pour in boiling water and stir..... then rub it on the piece with a cotton cloth.... be prepared to sit for 20 minutes doing that.... if the piece is quenched steel, it will come out much more quickly but if its armor, then you will wear your fingertips off but it should work...

 

another... a quick dip in nital.... just to out line the grains... rinse ... then rub with sodium metabisulpide... this has a good result with some steels... much quicker... and if dilution is right ...it'll only darken the matrix and leave the carbides brite..... sometimes acids are used in tandem ( one after other ) to get what you want.. really its more Art than anything

 

there are also other sulphides that work..

 

also.. gallo tanates like the sulphides...so you can darken the piece after... ( sometimes is works...other times its sucky )

 

don't throw out the Fe3Cl ..i think that is very good for patternwelded steels.. and staining fingers...

 

 

have you seen turkish etches up close? very few i seen are light

 

Greg

[Jeff Pringle]

Excellent sword you have there Greg!

But what happened to the last one? Did you let your new ingots drag you away before you finished it?

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Jeff

 

truly sorry bout that... the other swords is already out the shop door and on the east coast.... it was on a rush...

 

this big one aswell...i've got to get off my butt and get it out the door... ... hah... and yes i already have another ingot that is lined up in the cue for next....

 

 

Greg

 

do you have any on the go

 

ps.. after that i have to go back to restor a couple or the mob will be at the door

[Cyrus]

Thanks Greg,

 

I will keep everything in mind. But before even thinking about this, I have to slow down with thinking and forge the fulad out more.

I thought about flying to my fathers country in september but I was told it would be impossible for me to handle a shamshir or even take a close look at the mountings.Strange that I do not get a help from my own people.

 

So I decided to fly to London and get an entry there through Owen Bush who offered me to help me to take a close look at one of the pieces in the wallace collection. Good man he is and very friendly. If everything works out, Andreas Schweikert and I will visit him and do also a melt at his place.

 

Regards, Cyrus

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Cyrus

 

there is no substitute for handling a real piece.. ! bring the white cotton gloves.. ;) and brass vernier calipers

 

most importantly... bring large paper with grid squares on it... and trace exact curvature of shamshir... this is probably the most important thing as the curvature of a shamshir is not just a simple curve...... and mark blade thickness in several areas... especially around cop and before.. ...... Keep this template... and gather Many such tracings to accumulate some data... then you can notice trends in this population.... there are trends to be noted.. ..... also don't go by the date given to a highly curved sword, often they are too modern

 

if the sword is "Assadollah " ... note if the nastelique is good on cartouche... and the tribute to the Shah

 

you have a very good chance to do some great personal research here..... don't worry about Persia, you must go through doors that are open ! ( is that fate ? )

 

ps.. I'd get out the bottle of good stuff for Owen, he's awesome to help out like this !

[Jeff Pringle]

Even if it is a rush job, I always manage to snap a few photos to share, especially if it comes out nice

A camera is also good to bring to those museum visits, you can find unnoticed details that are easy to miss in the moment; graph paper is a must-have and is helpful in the background of your photos.

[Brent L]

some explain to me why Greg hasn't gained his beard burning status?

 

I can't wait to see more Greg.

 

Brent.