owen bush Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) In March this year I was aproached by Dave Rawlins,who is a medieval sword instructor to make Him a messer or a big bowie knife .Dave was very energetic about the project (to say the least).He was looking for a live feeling blade for tamishigary and practicing forms so a very "real" knife was called for. I documented the making process and will go through it .......... Dave sent me some pictures as reference . one picture of a knife owned by Hans Hein of Ochs. and a couple of pictures of medieval farmers knives to give detail of the nail (finger guard) . My immediate thoughts were that I loved the the farmers knives ,they screamed "seax" and must have progressed from that lineage . I also liked the simplicity of them .I was not so sure about the messer as an overall design especially the clip (I find clips hard to esthetically digest) when Dave came over to discuss the project I showed him a couple of finished knives that I still had in my possession .Including this one .... Now I must admit that I had hoped Dave would steer towards the Farmers knife shape If I showed him a real blade of that ilk......I didn't push that at all, I would not want to over influence his ideas but my subtle hints obviously paid off . As a side note ,watching someone who is trained with a sword and also "good" handle one of your blades is a real eye opener ....fast doesnt come close !!! so...having seen my stuff and discussed things Dave decided on a blade shape similar to my seax but longer and with a cross guard and "nail" the handle being about as long as a messer handle . So I set about forging (before submitting a design......) Here are some progress shots ,I had the blade shape in mind ,and had worked out dimentions and weights ,this was a blade forged and ground with a pair of calipers and scales close to hand .I wanted a lite blade with enough body for good cutting and a good thickness by the guard to keep it stiff . The blade was to be made from 700 layers of 15n20 and en42 ........ Here is the billet being worked under my Goliath hammer . forging the preform shape the story makes a jump as I don't have pictures of making the bevels...... Grinding and at this point I thought it wise to send some photies to Dave as he was wondering how the whole thing was going along so I put pencil to paper and sent this design with the ground blade next to it ...... Dave came back with a change in the guard and as the making progressed I added a couple of changes too..... to be continued.......... Thanks to Dan Bass for coming and spending so much time taking the photies . Edited August 4, 2009 by owen bush forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Ok , I like to have a look at the Damascus pattern early on to keep me inspired (not a problem with this piece) Here I am filing in the blade shoulders ,using a file guide ... Painting on anti scaling compound .. then multiple normalisings . into the fire.. I have no imaged of the quench ,it all happened too fast and was not something I was going to repeat!! eying the blade up for straitness ,boy do I love meta austenite . More to follow forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Oh, this is gonna be good! I'd like to see a "good" swordsman practicing with a long seax-like blade. I know what I can do with one, and that's scary enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 good series... Man, i'm stoked ! absolutely lovely damasc and blade... wow G North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Looks really good, I'm looking forward to seeing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Chalifoux Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Sweet! Messers are among my favorite swords. You mentioned that the dimensions had been worked out, could I ask what they are? This is some fantastic work. Ironically, I started a messer of my own a couple 'o days ago but obviously it's no where near as good as yours... Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Owen, That looks awesome. Man, good stuff happening on the forum lately! Looking forward to seeing more shots. --Dave -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stéphane A. Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Yeah Dave and also because of what you do ! Great work Owen. I understand the self motivation in such a project. It will be brilliant ! See ya Stéphane My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KPeacock Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 All this sword stuff is making me a bit itchy to make something long, sharp and, pointy. Thanks for taking the time to share your pics. Have you ever thought about the life of steel? It's interesting to think that you can control the fate of a piece of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Sobolewski Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Finish it quick before my computer breaks from all the drool! I'm inspired, and aspire, before some of you retire, to work with steel and fire and make tools that you'll admire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lester Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Nice to hear from someone else who has esthetic problems with clip points. That is a nice looking blade. Please post the picture of the finished product. I hadn't run into the concept of the farmer's knife before. Are large knives still used on the farms in England or are they pretty much outdated tools? Doug Lester HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Nice to hear from someone else who has esthetic problems with clip points. That is a nice looking blade. Please post the picture of the finished product. I hadn't run into the concept of the farmer's knife before. Are large knives still used on the farms in England or are they pretty much outdated tools? Doug Lester Doug, As I understand it the "farmers" knife was a "weapon " carried by civilians, as there were often limitations as to who could own a sword .the ones pictured are I believe German and they do have a generic name (that I don't know) someone will though . I am working towards the finished piccies (the piece is now finished ) I'll post more this evening . Thanks Edited August 7, 2009 by owen bush forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Daniel Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 would the german name be the "grosse messer"? or "big knife" lol i'm probably wrong i only need 3 things to be happy: my girlfriend, my forge, and fruit juice. Casey W Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Chalifoux Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) "Grosse messer" is the name for the single-handed version and it does mean "big knife" (good job on that one C Daniel ). The two-handed version is "kriegs messer" meaning "war knife." As i understand it, they were used by civilians and peasants as both weapons and kind-of machetes (clearing brush, etc) but the nobles and knights recognized their usefulness as a weapon as well. I'm sure that Peter Johnsson could explain this in far more detail. Edited August 4, 2009 by AJ Chalifoux Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lihan Hauk Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Howdy, in German we call them Bauernwehr(Farmers Defense) , Hauswehr(Hausdefense), Langes Messer(Long Knife), there are more names for sure. In old Times only the Nobel had the right to have Swords, thou the Farmers and not so Nobel had large Knives and they Knew haw to use them see hear http://images.google.de/images?q=bauernweh...le&resnum=4 Edited August 4, 2009 by Lihan Hauk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian brush Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) It's not Dave or the guys at Fight Medieval/The Boars Tooth Fight school, but the folks in this video know which end's the pointy one: And Owen, I don't want to steal your thunder, but Dave put some videos of him cutting with Dusk...and MAN I'm impressed. Edited August 5, 2009 by brian brush 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Cool project Owen! Thos farmer's knives are way cool. Let not the swords of good and free men be reforged into plowshares, but may they rest in a place of honor; ready, well oiled and God willing unused. For if the price of peace becomes licking the boots of tyrants, then "To Arms!" I say, and may the fortunes of war smile upon patriots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Howdy,in German we call them Bauernwehr(Farmers Defense) , Hauswehr(Hausdefense), Langes Messer(Long Knife), there are more names for sure. In old Times only the Nobel had the right to have Swords, thou the Farmers and not so Nobel had large Knives and they Knew haw to use them see hear http://images.google.de/images?q=bauernweh...le&resnum=4 thanks Bauernwehr is the word . forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Now I must say that through the whole process Dave was very comunacative and pretty exited by the whole idea of his messer .He phoned often but was not dissapointed when my progress had not evolved between phone calls . I had meant to make the guard and pommel from big section wrought iron I had ,only to find upon forging it that it was steel (and odd crumbly stuff at that ) so i eventually made both the guard and pommel for low layer -low contrast damascus. unfortunately I was to busy working to take photos of the guard pommel making . The guard, blade slot was hot punched . and I changed the shape a little in the fire ,it now has a little bit of flying swann (or dragon) to it . I had promised to let him have a feel of the balance before I put the whole thing together.......... so, I rough assembled the pieces with a couple of pins and super glue so that he could have a gentle swing of the piece (not sharpend yet) Here it is in roughed out handle ,the handle is walnut. I wanted the look to be utilitarian and more of a captains sword than a princes (It was going to be a user) . by this point I had done a lot of messing about with the balance ,the pommel was hollowed out and the tang drilled and in the process of finishing the blade, it went on a bit of a diet .I was fairly sure it felt "rite" the finished sword weighs 2 1/4 pound . here is the mocked up blade ready for balance approval Dave was very happy with the feel of the piece (which I was glad about!!!) so I proceeded to finish it for him .... one little tip I gained from all this was that supergluing the handle onto the tang was a great way to get the final shaping done ,superglue is a great tempory holder . here are the handle pieces ready to assemble . I chose riveting as the final "belt and braces "method of construction, everything had already been apoxyd first . The riveting does two things ,it holds the handle together and adds some grip the the whole thing (3 things ,it makes it look rustic ,like a farmers knife and something in the blacksmith in me likes the rivets) .The pommel pieces were dove tailed over the wood ,I like this method of construction. I finaly delivered the blade in early July ,I handed it over at The wallace collection in london and we had a wonder around and looked at swords . Not a bad way to complete a Job!!! Dave Named the blade "Dusk" and I think it suits it well .I have never named a sword (or any blade for that matter) but I think I shall start . More soon..... forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter johnsson Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) Owen, really nice to see this one finished! I think you did some thinking aloud about this project when we last met in London, yes? These long single edged weapons are riveting. Offering much more than their often pretty plain looks hint at. Seeing a blade like this in pattern welded steel makes me think. A new take on an old concept. I like the aspect of how a contemporary swordsman commissions a sword from a contemporary smith: both being clear that the project is based on the traditional weapons but the concept of making is departed from mere pastiche. There is a great quantity of Owen Bush in this one! Interesting how much the feel changes during the last stages of fine tuning and fitting, eh? Edited August 5, 2009 by peter johnsson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Owen, that is just beautiful. Very nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif S Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Wow! Great pictorial and Dusk turned out wonderfully! That's quite a filleting knife A very proud Say-Mak owner My YouTube channel www.leifern.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen bush Posted August 7, 2009 Author Share Posted August 7, 2009 Sorry for the wait Life is V busy at the moment , With out further delay I give you Dusk ......... I got a lot of satisfaction from this project especially getting the feel and balance just rite,(a job which in all honesty took quite a bit of time ) . Thanks to Dave Rawling for the commission and for being both persistent and patient (I hasten to add that I finished this one just about on time ,which is an interesting concept in its own rite!!!) Many thanks Owen forging soul in to steel owenbush.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Delfosse Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 congrats, Owen! I'm waiting forward to meet you in Gembloux, next November! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Hi all - my first post here since waaaayy too long Just to say I had the chance to handle (though very briefly) this knife last weekend, and images (even moving pictures) can't convey how light and yet powerful it feels, and full of awesome it is Cheers Fab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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