Shadow smith Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Hi there, im having some trouble with forge welding a billet of mild steel and saw mill blade.ive kept the steels as clean as posible and i was using only coke in my fire,i also used borax.any ideas why its not welding together? Edited October 15, 2009 by Shadow smith Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petr Florianek Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) HSS steel? the one from saw? Edited October 15, 2009 by Petr Florianek GULLINBURSTI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 i just cut out a few pieces of saw mill blade(the round wood saw thingy) and i had a piece of mild. Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KPeacock Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Without knowin exactly what steels you're trying to weld, I'm guessing you're doing one of two things wrong. You're probably huitting the steel far too hard and you're probably not getting it up to temp. I did both of these wrong until I saw it done and realized my steel was WAY too cold and I was hitting it far too hard. Have you ever thought about the life of steel? It's interesting to think that you can control the fate of a piece of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pikula Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 i just cut out a few pieces of saw mill blade(the round wood saw thingy) and i had a piece of mild. I would say try using cold rolled if you are going to use mild, it is generally cleaner then hot rolled, and I'm not sure what kind of steel is used in the body of a circular saw blade... See if you can find a band saw blade perhaps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bower Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 What color is the steel when you're trying to weld it? What sort of surface preparation have you done prior to welding? How have you cleaned the surfaces to be welded, if at all? Are you heating the steel in a reducing part of the fire? Exactly how are you using the borax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenon Rain. Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 the circular saw blades without carbide bits were a high carbon steel, not sure which ones, but it wasn't a laminate of high/low carbon like carbide edged blades.... The carbide ones didn't have to be a hardenable steel, because all the cutting was done with the fused on pieces. your fire might also be oxidizing, I had trouble forge welding in my coal forge (old rivet forge) because it was too shallow, so unconsumed oxygen pretty much directly impacted the steel making it oxidize crazy fast.. if you can, build a deep fire, 6in should probably do it, and put it 3-4inches up from the bottom.. deeper the fire, the less you have to worry about extra oxygen. also, bring it up to heat slowly.. if you have a hand blower, cranking the hell of it to make the coals hot pumps more oxy in there as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 to clean the steels i grinded them until silver and then once the billet was arc welded up i put it in some acil to clean it up even more,i sprinkled some borax on all the sides that needed to be welded and i brought it up to a bright white with small sparkles coming off it and i pulled it out and hit it not to hard and not to soft,the out side pieces of the saw blade welded to the mild steel with no trouble at all but the inside ones didnt stick at all.ive got a small piece of bansaw blade but its too thin and too small to do anything with. Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenon Rain. Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 sounds like you brought it up to heat way to quickly, with bars as thick as billets the center can take a bit of time to heat up. thats why, in a propane forge you let the heat "soak" for a few minutes or so, to make sure the whole bar is of an even heat. you should apply your flux when the metal is at a dull orange, or high red color.. as long as its hot really, but I like working around there because I can wirebrush off alot of the scale before fluxing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 sounds like you brought it up to heat way to quickly, with bars as thick as billets the center can take a bit of time to heat up. thats why, in a propane forge you let the heat "soak" for a few minutes or so, to make sure the whole bar is of an even heat. you should apply your flux when the metal is at a dull orange, or high red color.. as long as its hot really, but I like working around there because I can wirebrush off alot of the scale before fluxing. the thing is that the outside was already sparkling away and if i left it there for longer it would have melted the outside pieces of saw blade. i also have a feeling the borax im using isnt the right stuff.i just went to a shop that sells chemicals and i asked for a kg of borax and they gave me one.it looks exaclty like sugar, and all the blade smiths ive seen forge welding use a very fine dust like borax Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bower Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 First, yes, apply flux at a red or low orange. Second, it sounds like you're running the forge too hot. Ease up on the blast so you can bring the steel up to temp slowly and uniformly. This is not impossible; people have been doing it for a long time. You'll just have to experiment. Third, I doubt the flux is your problem. There's a chance that they gave you anhydrous borax (which is just borax without water), or maybe boric acid. But both work fine for welding. Finally, sparking white is too hot for medium/high carbon steels like your saw blade hopefully is. You might be able to get it to weld at that temp, but it's not at all good for the steel. Try -- really try -- to avoid that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 1 -- Are you sure the circular saw blade isn't high speed steel? Some of the steel from high rpm saw blades are exotic and very hard if not impossible to weld in a forge. The saw blades you want are the old kind that are probably L6 (a simple high carbon steel). I really encourage anyone that is first starting to weld in a forge to buy some new steel. It's very cheap. You can get 10xx steel from Admiral or Jantz for very little. That way you KNOW what you're working with and can eliminate one variable when troubleshooting. 2 -- I note that you soaked it in acid after you ground it clean. That could be a problem. Depending on the acid it can actually leave gunk between the layers rather than cleaning them. Acid soak isn't a bad idea before you grind clean, if you have heavy rust or scale, but I wouldn't do it after the grind. 3 -- As others have noted, flux the heck out of it when it's just starting to get red. Don't wait until it's orange hot. I flux mine when it is just barely starting to get red. 4 -- You can just use reguar laundry Borax if you're unsure of the flux you're using. 20 Mule Team borax is all I use and it works fine. Find it in the laundry aisle in any grocery store. Good luck! --Dave -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 1 -- Are you sure the circular saw blade isn't high speed steel? Some of the steel from high rpm saw blades are exotic and very hard if not impossible to weld in a forge. The saw blades you want are the old kind that are probably L6 (a simple high carbon steel). I really encourage anyone that is first starting to weld in a forge to buy some new steel. It's very cheap. You can get 10xx steel from Admiral or Jantz for very little. That way you KNOW what you're working with and can eliminate one variable when troubleshooting. 2 -- I note that you soaked it in acid after you ground it clean. That could be a problem. Depending on the acid it can actually leave gunk between the layers rather than cleaning them. Acid soak isn't a bad idea before you grind clean, if you have heavy rust or scale, but I wouldn't do it after the grind. 3 -- As others have noted, flux the heck out of it when it's just starting to get red. Don't wait until it's orange hot. I flux mine when it is just barely starting to get red. 4 -- You can just use reguar laundry Borax if you're unsure of the flux you're using. 20 Mule Team borax is all I use and it works fine. Find it in the laundry aisle in any grocery store. Good luck! --Dave unfortunatley we dont have laundry borax here where i live so i have to go with what ive got.when i apply the borax to the steel it goes a yellow and after its melted there is a scale like stuff where the borax was before it melted but there is still liquid borax in the gaps.all i know about the saw blade is that it was a very old one that was used on the back of a tracktor to cut small trees and other wood things.the saw isnt the problem, it welds together perfectly fine its the 3 pieces in the middle that wont weld, they are mild,saw blade and then mild.on the outside of the mild is saw blade on both sides.so in order the pattern should be saw,mild,saw,mild,saw.as i mentioned the outsides pieces of saw welded up fine,no crackes at all.ill try take a pic and upload it for more detailed look at it. Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 here is the pics of the billet.i actually had two pieces of saw blade it the middle.not one Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Norris Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 the thing is that the outside was already sparkling away and if i left it there for longer it would have melted the outside pieces of saw blade. Others here have said this but, it bears repeating! Get the steel in the fire and run the blast, put on your borax and then turn the air off and walk away for a few minutes. Let the heat penetrate all the way to the center of the steel. When you come back to it, bring it up to welding temperature as slowly as possible. You want the inside of the billet just as hot as the outside. here is the pics of the billet.i actually had two pieces of saw blade it the middle.not one Some types of steel (ones higher in chromium) are difficult to get to stick when welding. They weld to other steels (steels with low or no chromium) just fine but, try stick two layers of these steels together and the results are unsatisfactory. Your saw blade steel, the two layers in the middle, might have enough chromium to make welding it to itself difficult. One other thought. Steels higher in nickel (saw blade steels) can be difficult to weld. Grinding all surfaces clean and using flux properly helps to alleviate this. They tend to form a thick layer of whitish nickel oxide that is quite tough and resistant to flux, removing it mechanicaly works better. Prevent the oxide from forming by fluxing at the right time and controlling your fire. ~Bruce~ “All work is empty save when there is love, for work is love made visible.” Kahlil Gibran "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them." - Alfred Adler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 ok i see now.on monday when i go to the work shop ill weld up a billet of leaf sring and mild thats all.then ill bring it home and try forge weld it.ive also got a lot of high tensile cable here,is that any good, its a bit rusty and im not sure how i would clean it. Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip West Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Im a blacksmith that plays at being a bladesmith So I tried to learn forge welding for my smithing work right off the back, with no instruction Took me a bit I still do most of my welding in a coal forge because I havent put any kinf of protection in the bottom of my diamondback gasser. Anyway buddy, let me tell you what worked for me. After I tried this the light came on . A deep big fire. Make sure the "fireball" is about the size of a mushmellon (or catalope to you non Ky guys)..Your workpiece needs to be in the upper third of the fire. At least 4" of coke must between your air flow and work piece. Then at inch or two of coke above your workpiece. My problem was I was letting my workpiece oxidize and therefor it wouldent weld. A lot of guys use the "Beehive" shaped fire whcih works fine too but I like the large deep fire better. Let your workpiece completely come up to temp. Same color thru and thru. The outside may be welding temp but the inside may not Watch for that. The best of us occasionally have a "duh" moment and have one not to stick.. You have to take Life by the throat, then you need to chocke it until it spits up what you want!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 ill have to try this when the weather is sunny again Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share Posted October 21, 2009 Ok so yesterday a friend gave me a snaped bansaw blade but apparently its High speed steel not nickel.is it stick possible to use or is it whats always used with bansaw damascus? Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 HSS or bimetal bandsaw blades will not work for this. You must have plain carbon or low-alloy blades. Exactly the type you're not likely to find on small bandsaws. If you can scrounge up some leaf spring and some structural steel, give that a go. Your results won't have the highest carbon in the world, but it should still be enough to harden. And there will be enough contrast in the etch. I find leaf spring to etch pretty dark, while structural tends to stay light silvery gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 HSS or bimetal bandsaw blades will not work for this. You must have plain carbon or low-alloy blades. Exactly the type you're not likely to find on small bandsaws. If you can scrounge up some leaf spring and some structural steel, give that a go. Your results won't have the highest carbon in the world, but it should still be enough to harden. And there will be enough contrast in the etch. I find leaf spring to etch pretty dark, while structural tends to stay light silvery gray. well my first forge weld was actually hss bansaw blade and a piece of coil spring, the hss blade was a very light shiny color and the coil spring was dark.so i think ill take a few srips of bansaw blade and some route iron or some leaf spring and try that.what would the two common and easy steels be in damascus? Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 it maybe as simple as building up a little forgewelding mojo.... get a piece of mild bar.. hot cut the end like your doing a fold... grind it clean... and forge weld it.. bright white heat and bubbly flux ( if the flux is caked up, then its full of crud and oxidized ) take a couple tries.. next... do it with a nicholson file... now at a bright yellow temp ( NO sparks ) the higher the carb content, the lower the weld heat this just gets you the feel for it.. then move onto metal layers that are similar in the way they move.... like 1080 and 15n20... or keep the the plain steels like 1060, 1080, 1095 for lower contrast and easy welds set the weld... do it lightly at first... till you feel the plates act as a solid bar and not a buzzy pack of plates... work that weld more than once at weld heat.. as they say... practise it all the time... try it every time you fire up... and it'll get to be a more friendly process.. .. no rush, just have a good time learning Greg North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Hi there, im having some trouble with forge welding a billet of mild steel and saw mill blade.ive kept the steels as clean as posible and i was using only coke in my fire,i also used borax.any ideas why its not welding together? Hi Shadow, Take two warn out files, heat the ends to red, dip them in the flux and put back in the fire. Rub them together as they heat and feel for them to get sticky..with just hand pressure you can push hard enough to get them to weld a bit. Now look at them..that is what you want to see for weld to take place. Now try a bit of file and a mild steel rod...do the same thing as with the two files. Note that appearance as well. Now build a small stack about 1x1x1/2 of mild steel and files...heat red, flux, heat evenly and poke at it with the sharp tang end of a file...when the file begins to stick note the appearance...does it look like the other two tests you ran? If so then pull it out and give it a few blows ike your driving a nail...flip it 90 and give a few more blows..then back in the fire...repeat. grind it clean and etch..see what you have. If it worked then do a larger billet...and a larger one and a larger one..till you get to the size you wish to work. It should take a few hours to run the tests and get a billet. AND find a smith you can go visit. There area several in NZ that I am sure will help if you give them enough time to do so. Ric Richard Furrer Door County Forgeworks Sturgeon Bay, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow smith Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 Hi Shadow, Take two warn out files, heat the ends to red, dip them in the flux and put back in the fire. Rub them together as they heat and feel for them to get sticky..with just hand pressure you can push hard enough to get them to weld a bit. Now look at them..that is what you want to see for weld to take place. Now try a bit of file and a mild steel rod...do the same thing as with the two files. Note that appearance as well. Now build a small stack about 1x1x1/2 of mild steel and files...heat red, flux, heat evenly and poke at it with the sharp tang end of a file...when the file begins to stick note the appearance...does it look like the other two tests you ran? If so then pull it out and give it a few blows ike your driving a nail...flip it 90 and give a few more blows..then back in the fire...repeat. grind it clean and etch..see what you have. If it worked then do a larger billet...and a larger one and a larger one..till you get to the size you wish to work. It should take a few hours to run the tests and get a billet. AND find a smith you can go visit. There area several in NZ that I am sure will help if you give them enough time to do so. Ric ok ill have to go search for some files first but ill try mild rod or rebar as a practise.my first damascus billet was only 30mm x 10mm so it was a very small piece and i think thats why it welded so easily. Patients is the key to sucsess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John N Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hi Alan, Just a querie on why you say Bi-Metal blades wont work for patternwelding? Ive used a lot of the 'M42 Bi-Metal' blades and had them weld up lovely with the chunky pallet-strap. Is the conventinal wisdom to many alloying elements / to much crome? (never seen a spec for the metal). I usually knock the teeth off with an angle grinder before stacking (full face respirator job, those little bu&&ers are tough., cobalt?) Mike, I remember your postings on IFI website, and gave you lots of pointers on there for patternwelding. I still think youve got to get the basics down (forging mono-steels) first mate. Cool name BTW, . my website is www.shadowforge.co.uk ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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