yet another freakin seax topic

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

its the one i will start with! Is there some with more clearly visible snakes? i would like to make it from wrought and some medium carbon steel and oaken wood. I barely remember that i saw some silver strips on some guards but i don know where it was

OAL about 59 cm, as i read somwhere else.

That length is probably incorrect. It's described as that one the website, but I believe it's a lot shorter. You can see it on the photo here next to a sword that's 90cm in length. It's clearly not 2/3 the length of the sword should it have been 59cm. I was going to take photos of it recently, but unfortunately that part of the museum is closed for a year.

 

This one from France has a pretty well preserved pattern of interwoven snakes:

 

On other saxes, it's usually only limited patches of the engravings that are still recognizable. On the Nijmegen example, you can just recognize it in this photo.

[Petr Florianek]

the one from france is 490 mm according to site Antoine posted. and it has no pommel. 60 cm is in the narrow sax range or is out?

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

the one from france is 490 mm according to site Antoine posted. and it has no pommel. 60 cm is in the narrow sax range or is out?

Perhaps on the longest end. Most have blades of 30-40cm, with hilts of about 15cm IIRC.

[Petr Florianek]

thats good, its more in my forge welding and heattreating skill area.

[owen bush]

Some of those blades are beautiful ,This is another great thread .I look forward to seeing another wave of seax in show and tell .

 

I must admit to being a little bit lost as to where one type of seax ends and another starts .

 

The story of "Seax" within the story of "sword" just goes to show me how much there is to learn about all this stuff ,and makes me realize what a great Journey we are all on and what a wonderfull place this is to bring it all together.

[Petr Florianek]

i propose to make a learning sax thread and include these information in, are our seax specialists Peter and Jeroen willing to do so? It can be made pinned

Edited December 4, 2009 by Petr Florianek

[DFogg]

This is a wonderful, informative thread and I did pin it, but given the last loss of data I would like to start converting some of the rich threads to pdf files so they can be saved. I had started to do this a while back, but it got away from me.

 

Thanks to you all for a great discussion. I have a saex for show and tell almost finished.

[Petr Florianek]

agreed!

There is anothe thing i would like to know - are there grooves and fullers on langsaxes?, I thing that this beast is very intersting and i would like to know what fighting technique it was designed for

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

Some of those blades are beautiful ,This is another great thread .I look forward to seeing another wave of seax in show and tell .

 

I must admit to being a little bit lost as to where one type of seax ends and another starts .

This is a very handy guide for the evolution of continental saxes (posted many times already, but can never be posted enough:)):

 

 

On Wikipedia there's also an article on saxes, which has a brief summary of the common features on various sax types.

 

British sax evolution is a bit different, with a lot more size variation after the narrow sax. Scandinavian sax evolution is a mix of both the continental examples, as the saxes that are basically inlarged Scandinavian (womens) knives, the single edged swords and some other oddballs. There are some other big (weapon) knives from the continent that don't fit well or not at all within these typologies.

 

 

The story of "Seax" within the story of "sword" just goes to show me how much there is to learn about all this stuff ,and makes me realize what a great Journey we are all on and what a wonderfull place this is to bring it all together.

Yes, that's why I always delve into these things:) Particularly those things that happen to be really cool, but which most people have not seen much off yet always draw my attention, and I just have to know everything that there is to know about the subject. The sax is such a subject (as is bronze age, early iron age etc.). They're often either ignored in history, museums etc., and for a long time completely misrepresented as rough, simple weapons in living history. But diving into them, and you'll quickly find just how refined and advanced a lot of them were, with the high end pieces being at the very top of bladesmithing craftmanship that history has to offer.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

agreed!

There is anothe thing i would like to know - are there grooves and fullers on langsaxes?,

Yep. Westphal describes in "Untersuchungen an Langsaxen aus niederlandische Sammlungen" (investigation of long saxes in Dutch collections) the following groups of Saxon (continental Saxon, not Anglo-Saxon) langsaxes from the late 7nd to lat 8th century:

 

Group I & II

a) two grooves on each side, with a fuller only on one blade side between the grooves, not patterwelded.

b.) two grooves on each side, patternwelding inlayed within the grooves, no fullers.

 

Group III

c) twoo grooves on each side, two fullers between grooves on each side, solid torsion damast between the grooves, sawtooth welded edge.

d) same as c, no patternwelding

 

Group IV

e) twoo grooves on each side, single fuller each side, sawtooth welded edge

f) same as a)

 

The grooves always come together where the straight back curves into the tip on these.

 

A later broken back longsax (10th century) found in the Netherlands from the same publication has a more complex layout. From the (German) tekst and photos I can make out that from the back it's got: 3 parallel grooves, 4th groove with bronze/brass S-twined double wires inlayed and a fuller with solid pattern welding below. All grooves and fuller extend straight towards the point and end just before the back of the point (so the edge of the point back is straight, and not cut by the grooves and fuller).

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk

[Alan Longmire]

Wow, this has really got my head spinning!

 

And now Don says he's making one? Wow again!

 

Thank you Peter and Jeroen for all this wonderful information. In these two threads alone there is more practical, true information about saxes than I've ever seen in one place, and almost the only such in English. This is good for me, as my German isn't very good and my French, Norsk, Swensk, Danish, and Dutch is pretty much non-existant.

[Petr Florianek]

so, as i understand the Jesenwang example you posted earlier in other thread is example of a/?

 

and does this description have only typological meaning or also chronological?

 

thanks again

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

so, as i understand the Jesenwang example you posted earlier in other thread is example of a/?

Possibly, yeah.

 

and does this description have only typological meaning or also chronological?

It has some meaning chronologically, but there is a lot of overlap (probably also due to inaccurate dating). Groups I and I-II f.e. are mostly within 690-760 and group IV mostly 740-810. It's probably too close to make such fine divisions, as someone dying old may be buried with an earlier variant at a later time than someone born later but dying young. I also don't know what makes the difference between the groups, as I-IIa apparently has the same cross-section as IVf.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk

[Petr Florianek]

Thanks!

are narow saxes narrow? and do you know the example Peter gave with cross hatching? Do you think it can indicate come precious metal overlay?

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

Thanks!

are narow saxes narrow?

Yes, that's why they're named that way

 

and do you know the example Peter gave with cross hatching?

Not until he posted it. I'm familiar with the similar smaller 3rd-4th century equivalents he posted.

 

Do you think it can indicate come precious metal overlay?

I'm not sure, it looks to coarse IMO too. Though I've not had any experience in applying inlays in that manner, so I don't know what works and what doesn't. But usually with damascening like that, the cross hatching is much finer then that.

[peter johnsson]

Thanks!

are narow saxes narrow? and do you know the example Peter gave with cross hatching? Do you think it can indicate come precious metal overlay?

 

The one I posted is not published as far as I know, nor is it exhibited. It sleeps in the store room.

It does not fit in any way with the typology of continental seaxes. It is also a very unique example in swedish finds, I should think.

 

The cross hatching was indeed made to secure silver overlay.

 

It is such a special case, it might be better to leave it outside our discussion on seaxes/saxes. I am not even sure of its dating. It may be earlier even than the first narrow long seaxes?

[jake cleland]

oh my. a Fogg seax. i cannot wait. Peter, the blade shape of the early narrow one with the cross hatched bolsters is beautiful, and i agree that from the rivet block and the lines of the thing that it seems to be related to the other ones you posted. i have to make one of these things. stupid, bill paying commissions...

[Petr Florianek]

I know that they are narrower then others but they seem to me pretty broad, compared with scandinavian examples of viking age. My question was directed slightly other way: It is common in archeology that terminology lives quite long time, and I was thinking that these saxes could be given its name in the time when finds were rare and more recent finds deny the name a bit. It seems to me that the wide x long ratio is not extremely diferent than in other types, but i did not see many of them.

 

I would also like to ask Peter about scandinavian ones, for example this lovely one:

http://catview.historiska.se/catview/CatViewServlet/?action=getImage&noforward=true&qualityLevel=3&upptagningsId=224071&fitMethod=FIT_WIDTH&width=700&height=700&forceVisability=0

 

http://catview.historiska.se/catview/CatViewServlet/?action=getImage&noforward=true&qualityLevel=3&upptagningsId=224070&fitMethod=FIT_WIDTH&width=700&height=700&forceVisability=0

 

dou you know if that one could be the one with leather over carving handle? Its vendel time. And what can blade construction possibly be? and sheathing... It is stylisticaly similar to one Jeroen posted earlier

 

always lot of questions :-)

[omalley]

stupid acidic european soil. why cant it all be those little packets of silica dessicant that they have in all the electronics boxes? that sax would be gorgeous if it wasnt all rusted up.

 

/me wanders off cursing at nature for getting in the way of metalwork.

[peter johnsson]

 

I would also like to ask Peter about scandinavian ones, for example this lovely one:

http://catview.historiska.se/catview/CatViewServlet/?action=getImage&noforward=true&qualityLevel=3&upptagningsId=224071&fitMethod=FIT_WIDTH&width=700&height=700&forceVisability=0

 

http://catview.historiska.se/catview/CatViewServlet/?action=getImage&noforward=true&qualityLevel=3&upptagningsId=224070&fitMethod=FIT_WIDTH&width=700&height=700&forceVisability=0

 

dou you know if that one could be the one with leather over carving handle? Its vendel time. And what can blade construction possibly be? and sheathing... It is stylisticaly similar to one Jeroen posted earlier

 

always lot of questions :-)

 

Ah, that is a nice one.

It belongs to the same group as the one Jeroen posted earlier: the one from Finland. I have seen a few of these and I know there has been finds from Gotland. They share this feature of upper and lower bolster and some kind of rivet block. A number of them has these loops with rings on each side of the rivet block (some would call that the pommel).

I remember seeing two of this kind with scabbards. They are of the regular type found with Vendel and Valsgärde seaxes. It is not the same type as the all enclosing leather scabbard with bronze mounts along the side of the edge.

These scabbards are wood core and leather cover with lavish bronze plates. Decorative pins or tacks along the edges. The scabbard only covered the blade and did not reach up over the grip of the knife. The scabbard was a little wider than the blade, naturally.

The one you posted Petr has remains of decorative tack in the grip as well. Typical for these, and very beautiful. These were stunning knives.

I think these had very thin leather over the wood of the grips. I have seen decorative carving in the wood that seem too fine to be able to survive on its own. On some of the ones that are pretty far gone in decomposition, it is still possible to see something tat looks like leather over the wood. I am not sure if any tests have been made to make sure about this.

 

I am not sure where these should be placed in the typology. They tend to be larger than narrow saxes (and are younger by a couple of centuries), but not as big as lang saxes. They are too slim to be broad saxes (and the broad sax is again a more ancient weapon). Are they smallish lang saxes?

Perhaps Jeroen can help us out. I shall also look around a bit in my material for more clues.

 

I have lent away my book on these saxes to some restorers of finds, who were working on just one such sax. Otherwise I could post some drawings.

I´ll see if I can find something else.

 

The scandinavian (baltic?) knives that by some writers are named saxes, and by other are called weapon or war knives, are slimmer yet than the narrow sax, but have a thicker spine. They are also later. I think they belong to the last part of the viking age, so they are separated in time by some 200 years. Jeff posted a drawing of these knives on the first page of this thread.

Edited December 5, 2009 by peter johnsson

[peter johnsson]

oh my. a Fogg seax. i cannot wait. Peter, the blade shape of the early narrow one with the cross hatched bolsters is beautiful, and i agree that from the rivet block and the lines of the thing that it seems to be related to the other ones you posted. i have to make one of these things. stupid, bill paying commissions...

 

 

....I know that feeling

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

I am not sure where these should be placed in the typology. They tend to be larger than narrow saxes (and are younger by a couple of centuries), but not as big as lang saxes. They are too slim to be broad saxes (and the broad sax is again a more ancient weapon). Are they smallish lang saxes?

Perhaps Jeroen can help us out. I shall also look around a bit in my material for more clues.

I don't believe the continental typology applies to these saxes. They're a different breed althogether IMO. Scandinavia seems to have developed their own saxes independendly, perhaps with with some cross-polination of some details, and some types being made both in Scandinavia and in the rest of Western Europe. N.b. does anyone know if saxes were also in use in Eastern Europe? I don't believe I've seen anything from those regions yet.

[peter johnsson]

I visited Vilnius just recently with the choir I sing in.

 

Naturally I had to see the local museums, hoping to see some of the rather unique single edged antennae swords that were made locally in the viking age.

I also hoped to find something tat may have been similar to the blades in the Hjortspring find.

I saw the antennae swords. Really strange and different swords. Perhaps some kind of branch on the Sax tree.

There were no Hjortspring equivalents, sadly.

But there were another type of single edged war knife that I have never seen before. They were dated to the early viking age, I think.

I took some quick and blurry photos taken just as memory notes:

In the lower pic is a cluster of strange looking war knives. The largest ones are about 45 cm in blade length and almost 8 or 9 cm wide. They are about 5 or 6 millimeter thick in the spine at the base and have an concave distal taper that is most sever in the first quarter of the blade. Out twards the oint they are about 2 millimeter thick.

 

The sax blades above all lack fullers or groves. Some have decorative stamping or a scraped line along the back. They swell in width towards the curving of the point. All had more or less straight backs.

The viking long knife with bronze worked scabbard was also prominent in this area. A little more crude in design than the ones found in Brirka, but clearly the same tradition.

Edited December 5, 2009 by peter johnsson

[Howie]

Is there a minimum length for a seax to be considered a long seax? Would a 15 in blade be considered a long seax?

 

Howie

[Jeff Pringle]

Jørgensen compares the nordic saxes with the continental in “Waffen und Gräber,” says the Kurtzsax (short) and Schmalsax (small) are the same, then in place of the Breitsax (broad) is a Scandinavian variant with a shorter grip and blade proportions of 36-53 cm L 3.5-4.3 cm W. Then the Langsax (long) is back in sync with the continental saxes, and after that the Scandinavians go their own way again in a trend that ends in those big Norwegian single-edged swords.

Those wide-point war knives are from Semigallia (Zemgale), they were the major Baltic tribe in the Vendel/Viking period and had those in place of the sax (they were made in sizes from utility knife to sword like the sax). They were the ones manufacturing tanged spears at the time when everyone else in the region was using sockets. They must have been an active participant in the region’s trade, their stuff is intermingled with Viking artifacts on both sides of the Baltic.

The Eastern European info is scant, both Kolcin and Kirpicnikov (the two big soviet-era names) show swords, axes and spears mostly in line with the Scandinavian & Frankish models, but no saxes.