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yet another freakin seax topic


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Regards niello, it is used even in roman times, I think.

Others can surely verify this.

It was certainly used in migration period stuff.

 

yeah, i have no idea where i got that from. i must have been thinking of something else, niello is apparently one of the oldest forms of inlay, practically predates the wheel.

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Here's a full-on shot of the whole display case. That seax is in the upper left corner. Based on the sword hilt to the right (and foggy memory) it's about 13 to 14 inches overall.  

I am about 95% sure #7 is the same seax (type III, from the Thames at Wandsworth)... if so, the blade is approximately 13 1/4 inches long and 1 3/4 inches wide.... approximate is the best I can do wit

Knife 11-12 century with the new efficient handle. Excuse for english, I use the translator

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And heres´s the "Etruscan" sax. It s from the article:

"Ricerche metallorgafiche sopra alcune lame etrusche di accaio"

by C. Panseri, C. Carino and M. Leoni

 

SaxRam´shead.jpg

 

Now I could kick myself in the head that I did not make sure to look for it when I visited Armeria Reale in Torino back in 2000.

( Wow. Ten years ago....!)

I had the article already at that time, but I did not recognize the weapon as a sax until just a few weeks ago when looking for facts on iron age metallurgy.

I mean, if there are forgotten things collecting dust even in my small bookshelf, think of everything that is hidden in all the storage rooms out there...

Wow, a surviving grip! Fascinating...

It has some resemblance to the small bone-handled knives from Germany, but raises more questions than answers.

Thank you for posting that one, Peter.

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I had the article already at that time, but I did not recognize the weapon as a sax until just a few weeks ago when looking for facts on iron age metallurgy.

 

what exactly ya looking for? i got a couple from a roman metallurgy paper i did last semester

 

Iron at Taanach and Early Iron Metallurgy in the Eastern Mediterranean

Author(s): T. Stech-Wheeler, J. D. Muhly, K. R. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. Maddin

Source: American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 85, No. 3 (Jul., 1981), pp. 245-268

Published by: Archaeological Institute of America

 

The Iron Age North of the Alps

Author(s): Ralph M. Rowlett

Source: Science, New Series, Vol. 161, No. 3837 (Jul. 12, 1968), pp. 123-134

Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science

 

Ironmaking in a Roman Furnace

Author(s): Henry Cleere

Source: Britannia, Vol. 2 (1971), pp. 203-217

Published by: Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies

 

Iron and Its Alloys in the Fifth to Eleventh Centuries AD in England

Author(s): G. McDonnell

Source: World Archaeology, Vol. 20, No. 3, Archaeometallurgy (Feb., 1989), pp. 373-382

Published by: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.

 

Iron, Prehistoric and Ancient

Author(s): Harry Craig Richardson

Source: American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1934), pp. 555-583

Published by: Archaeological Institute of America

 

let me know if thats about the flavor of what you're looking for. if you can get to a public library they usually have Jstor access, but if not, i have those on my comp in pdf format

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And heres´s the "Etruscan" sax. It s from the article:

"Ricerche metallorgafiche sopra alcune lame etrusche di accaio"

by C. Panseri, C. Carino and M. Leoni

 

SaxRam´shead.jpg

 

Now I could kick myself in the head that I did not make sure to look for it when I visited Armeria Reale in Torino back in 2000.

( Wow. Ten years ago....!)

I had the article already at that time, but I did not recognize the weapon as a sax until just a few weeks ago when looking for facts on iron age metallurgy.

I mean, if there are forgotten things collecting dust even in my small bookshelf, think of everything that is hidden in all the storage rooms out there...

But is it really a sax? Just because the blade is sax like in shape doesn't make it a sax. I mean, f.e. this example is nearly a langsax in blade shape, construction etc., aside from the fact that it's about 1300-1400 years older (Court-Saint-Etienne, Belgium, 660-620BC):

041001F06.JPG

So it's definately not a sax, just very much like one.

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yeah, i have no idea where i got that from. i must have been thinking of something else, niello is apparently one of the oldest forms of inlay, practically predates the wheel.

Are you refering to the black patination on f.e. Greek daggers and Egyptian khopeshes? That's been mistaken for niello, but appears to have been shakudo instead (copper with small amount of gold, which patinates to dark blue-purple).

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Are you refering to the black patination on f.e. Greek daggers and Egyptian khopeshes? That's been mistaken for niello, but appears to have been shakudo instead (copper with small amount of gold, which patinates to dark blue-purple).

 

that may be it, i spend half my life in classics and i tend to forget which lecture said what.

 

quick question, the brass plates on the end of the seax with the four nails, would that be appropriate to a schmaler breitsax with a hidden tang construction or is that just a peen block for riveted tang pieces?

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But is it really a sax? Just because the blade is sax like in shape doesn't make it a sax. I mean, f.e. this example is nearly a langsax in blade shape, construction etc., aside from the fact that it's about 1300-1400 years older (Court-Saint-Etienne, Belgium, 660-620BC):

041001F06.JPG

So it's definately not a sax, just very much like one.

 

 

Hey Jeroen, the picture you attached did not show up. At least not on my screen. I am very curious to see your example! Could you please try posting it again?

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Liam, on the reagent stains you have to make your own OR buy a bottle of Wahkon Bay aquafortis, which is ferric nitrate. Ferric acetate (vinegar full of iron, aka vinegaroon) turns stuff black, ferric nitrate (dilute nitric acid full of iron, aqua fortis) turns stuff a range of deep reddish browns. The nitrate requires activation by heat, the vinegar doesn't.

 

The vinegaroon is probably historically correct for saxes, dunno about the nitric acid.

 

 

For Aquafortis, how dilute do you start the Nitric before adding steel wool?

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For Aquafortis, how dilute do you start the Nitric before adding steel wool?

 

Starting with reagent grade nitric, 60 degree baume (the most common grade), dilute with distilled water by one part acid to three parts water. Always add acid to water, not the other way around, especially if you like your eyebrows and lungs. If you can get hold of fuming nitric, don't. :ph34r:

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I got some nitric from Eric Dobratz in Laguna before I left - he's a vet, and I think what he gave me was pretty pure. I'd better ask him before I mix. Once dilute, you just feed it steel wool until it won't eat any more, right?

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My friend says this...

 

It's standard molarity battery acid sulfuric with the H+ knocked off the SO4's and transferred to NO3's by soaking with sodium nitrate. It's probably pretty close to whatever molarity battery acid usually is. I only use it to dissolve metals in their entirety, so I've never tested it.

So you tell me, master of acid, how to proceed. I've never used it but as an etch for steel, works different than ferric.

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Hey, I haven't done acid since 1990 or so!! :angry: Oh, wait, wrong acid question, sorry.... :lol:

 

Dunno about converting sulfuric to nitric, didn't know you could do that, actually. I'm no chemist, I just play one on the internet. If it's the same dilution as battery acid that's about right for what we want, no dilution necessary. And yep, just slowly add steel wool until it won't take any more. It will get VERY hot at first, and will foam up and spew noxious orange smoke (nitric oxide) that will happily eat your lungs from the inside out, so do it outside on a windy day and be careful! Keep a big box of baking soda around just in case, it will neutralize any spilled acid. Eventually, anyway. If you get some on your skin before it's "killed" with the steel, it will leave an orange burn. After it's fully killed, it will still leave an orange stain, but it'll wash off in a day or two.

 

You may want to split it into two batches and dilute one by half to see if it makes a difference.

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Hey, I haven't done acid since 1990 or so!! :angry: Oh, wait, wrong acid question, sorry.... :lol:

 

so do it outside on a windy day and be careful! Keep a big box of baking soda around just in case, it will neutralize any spilled acid. Eventually, anyway. If you get some on your skin before it's "killed" with the steel, it will leave an orange burn.

 

 

EYE PROTECTION !!

 

 

You might also want to keep a 5 gallon pail of water or the hose on hand too. I did a lot of decorative etching on blades and non ferrous metals in the past. When I moved to my present home and workshop, I put in a special acid working sink. I managed to scrounge an old pressed steel with enamel sink, which I boxed in with a painted steel enclosure. This has a vent in it to an old furnace blower - which throws a huge amount of air out of the sink area outdoors. I run the water in the sink while I'm working in there - better safe than very, very sorry.

I typically work with a reagent grade Nitric acid mixed down roughly 1 acid to 3 water. That gives a 'topographic' (deep) etch down to maybe a 1/32 inch in about five minutes on a carbon steel. For copper or brass, maybe about 15 minutes for the same depth.

 

More back to the topic, I generally etch my layered blades twice. Once in Nitric to give some depth to the pattern, then a second step in ferric chloride for dramatic colour shifts. My typical blades are composed of 1095 (file), 1018 (as mild steel), L6 (band saw blade) and antique wrought iron. I personally find this gives me a good section of both colours and textures in the finished surface.

 

Darrell

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Yes indeed, full face shield, rubber apron and long rubber gloves, and a respirator with organic vapor cartridge would be nice if you've got one. Sorry I didn't mention the personal protective gear. :wacko:

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A recipe that I was given for making Aqua Regia from Muratic Acid by a gold salvager (hydrochloric acid) was one cup of potasium nitrate to a gallon of muratic acid. He said that this would be the equivalent of one part nitric acid to three parts hydrochloric acid. I'm assuming that if one would add four cups of potasium nitrate to a gallon of muratic acid you would convert it all to nitric acic.

 

An easier way would be to google etching supply houses and order nitric acid from them. If it is dilute enough, I understand that they can ship it without extra precautions.

 

Doug Lester

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so .... if you managed to get AR grade nitric ... is is just a matter of cutting it more with water?

 

and is it a matter of normal tap water for these recipes? ... or is it better to be using distilled?

im assuming that if you are dissolving stuff in there with it, it wouldnt matter.

but, im hopeless at chemistry

:)

 

cheers guys.

enjoyable and interesting reading all around.

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Dee, if I had to dilute out any of the acids I think that I would use distilled water. It's cheaper than the acid and why worry about a reation with something in the tap water.

 

Doug Lester

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all of a sudden vinegar and iron filings is sounding like a great place to STOP with homemade stains. this is getting a little too mad scientist for my blood.

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thats half the fun :)

who doesnt want to be a mad scientist?

 

ive been practising my

"its alivvveeee!!!!!"

for years :)

 

Doug ~ yuppers. makes sense.

i just never know if its something in the water thats meant to being out the desired effect ..

 

one of the bluing solutions i had been playing with didnt work for ages ... and i got all sad and frown about it only to find that the stainless steel pot i had invested in, so as not to have to keep replacing the mild steel tank all the while, was the actual thing that was killing the reaction.

 

so then i promptly went off and bought a pot that was marked as black ..

only to not have it work still ...

try and try again ... i found that the new pot was actually cast iron and was Also interfering with the reaction.

ack ... cant win.

:)

 

so now i like to ask so as not to end up hurting my brain later on down the track.

^_^

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Yep, the mad scientist part is where the fun is, as long as you avoid the "Mr. Hyde" reaction. :ph34r:

 

Distilled is needed, especially if your tap water has chlorine and flouride in it. Those two substances do not play well with other chemicals. ;)

 

Dee, did you try an enameled steel pot? I know hot bluing tanks are usually plain mild steel, but a lot of this stuff is so reactive you really need a glass-lined tank to keep it all happy.

 

If any of you do mess about with acids, please don't store them in plastic or, heaven forfend, metal containers. No metal in the lids, even. Seriously. The fumes will do unpleasant things. Plus it's not much fun to go into the shop to find your acid jar lid has disintigrated and the fumes have given every metal tool in the place a nice thick rust patina overnight... :wacko:

 

Brown glass with Bakelite caps, ground glass, or rubber stoppers only, please!

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nope, i didnt try enameled.

ill have to take a look around and see if i cant find something that is enameled to give it a go.

i know i need a large enough pot to compensate for the sheer expansion of this stuff.

 

first time i tried it i was caught out.

it expanded and expanded and i got it to somewhere it could overflow ... which was lucky cause it got so hot after that that i wouldnt have been able to carry it.

 

ok @ distilled.

there is no flouride and no chlorine in our water where i live,

but if normal water isnt needed, its probably best to just use distilled for the assurance.

thanks. :)

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