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Fred Crislip

Faint hamon on 52100

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This is my attempt to get a hamon on 52100 not to good (bad photos) comments? 800 grit wet sand with baking soda (I heard it helps prevent rust...seemed to work) cider vinegar to bring out the lines. Next try will be on some 1084.

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looks like you got something going on there to me.

just looks like it needs a bit more coaxing out of hiding is all.

:)

the actual heat treatment is only half the battle .... its getting the naturally shy hamon to throw off its social anxiety and come say hello that really can cheese you off.

so, you are well on your way to being a cheese-meister

 

welcome to the forum and thanks for showing your work.

^_^

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If you are getting that kind of temper-line on 52100, then you will definitely be able to get a very defined line on 1084. If you really wanna see this one come out, take it up to 2000 grit, etch, then go back to 1000grit (to take off the oxides), etch again, 1500, etch, 2000, etch--then rub with loose abrasives as a final step to see what you have. Repeat this until the nio-guchi is really bright, like inlaid silver, and the yakiba is whitened. The pearlite structures probably won't get very dark w/o some nugui, however. IMHO, this method should be a good technique for a hamon that is this "sleepy", but it will probably take some back-and-forth to get it the way you want. Hope this was helpful. Of course, all this is just my opinion and your experience may differ.

 

Thanks,

 

Shannon

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I think you have done very well to get it to show that much with 52100. :)

 

Might we inquire as to the heat treatment method used to produce it ?

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I think you have done very well to get it to show that much with 52100. :)

 

Might we inquire as to the heat treatment method used to produce it ?

 

Absolutely! I am quite astonished and amazed, myself. I have never seen this structure in 52100, but I don't deal with that alloy much, myself. Since Fred stated a very simple polish method, I thought my advice might perk it up a bit, if possible. Hope it helps!

 

Shannon

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Well, thanks for the advice and encouragement. the HT was rough grind to 320 grit, coat with Rutlands furnace cement,let dry for 24 hrs. then into the forge till just above non-magnetic. Quench in olive oil till cool.then scrape off all the cement(tough stuff)I used a metal scraper and some 320 grit sand paper.then a 3 hr.temper at 375 deg. and a 24 hr trip to my deep freezer, then final grind to 600 grit after that hand sand to 800 grit (wet) etch in cider vinager,rinse, repeat, ad infinatum.then polish with no.7 rubbing compound (automotive)till I got tired.I wish I could do more ,but this one had to be done buy Christmas!

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Can anyone tell me what the small dots that appear all over the blade are? On the knife they look like small shiny dots.

Thanks, Fred.

IMG_0221.JPG

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Can anyone tell me what the small dots that appear all over the blade are? On the knife they look like small shiny dots.

Thanks, Fred.

 

 

When that happens to me it's usually caused by dust on the blade surface when I dunk it in the etchant

 

clean and degrease very well and make sure there is no dust/lint on the blade or sitting on the surface of the etchant

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Can anyone tell me what the small dots that appear all over the blade are? On the knife they look like small shiny dots.

Thanks, Fred.

 

 

Fred--those dots could be alloys that have matrixed during heat treat that the particular polishing method has brought out. A version of "alloy banding". This may be especially true if they are all over--the hardened and the non-hardened areas.

 

However, sometimes martensite forms in crystal-clusters large enough to see--these are called "ko-nie" if they are big, "ara-nie" if they are huge (and harsh to the aesthetic)--both of those if inside the hamon/yakiba. If they are in the pearlite (ji), they are "ji-nie". You could reasonably expect to see them scattered all over a blade made of 52100 due to the deeper-hardening properties. What I mean is, there could be islands of martensite inside the pearlite on such a steel, and islands of rougher, large martensite from alloys inside the hamon. These are usually surface phenomenon--they disappear with subsequent polishes as the skin steel wears down.

 

Of course, this is just my experience and my own humble opinion.

 

I actually posted before I was able to read Stephan's response. His reasoning is absolutely plausible. Also, if you were able to see ara-nie at this stage of polishing--they would be VERY pronounced--it usually takes several rounds of jizuya to bring out ji-nie and a kesho/hadori treatment to show off the ko-nie and ara-nie respectfully. Because of this, I am going to say it is either caused by contaminates during the etch (dust), or alloy-banding/spotting as the more plausible possibilities.

 

 

 

Shannon

Edited by J.S. Hill

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Shannon, thanks for the info, now if i can figure out what all those japaneese words mean... got a good site to explain all of it? Stephan, I saw the article on you in the latest Knives Illustrated, very nice!It may be dust/comtamination but, the dots showed up every time that I etched no matter what I did to prevent them.They seemed to be deeper than just a surface flaw/problem. I wish that I had a better camera to show them to you all.

Thanks, Fred

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Shannon, thanks for the info, now if i can figure out what all those japaneese words mean... got a good site to explain all of it? Stephan, I saw the article on you in the latest Knives Illustrated, very nice!It may be dust/comtamination but, the dots showed up every time that I etched no matter what I did to prevent them.They seemed to be deeper than just a surface flaw/problem. I wish that I had a better camera to show them to you all.

Thanks, Fred

 

Fred,

 

The Japanese just refers to specific structures. If you wanna learn, here is an excellent resource:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm

 

Look down at the bottom. There is a word glossary in the links at the bottom.

 

If the dots go away when scrubbed out with wet/dry paper, then return to the same exact places on the blade when etched, they are activity. You will just have to experiment to find out.

 

I am curious--52100 is a very strong, resilient blade material. How is the edge retention when hardened?

 

Shannon

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If the dots go away when scrubbed out with wet/dry paper, then return to the same exact places on the blade when etched, they are activity. You will just have to experiment to find out.

 

 

Shannon

 

I agree

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Shannon, It seems to me to be very good, shaves hair, then chop 2x4 in half, still shaves hair. Then cut(in half) free standing water bottle with one cut no problem! I would like to do more cutting tests, ie. 1 in. free hanging rope (dont have any).It cuts cardboard over and over like theres no tommorow. That works for me! I am delivering it tonight,hope the buyer likes it!

Merry Christmas

Fred

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Another explanantion for the dots may be the cement. As I recall that stuff is gritty and depending on where the larger pieces lay againist the steel can affect the quench rate. I recall this happening with furnace cement.

 

I can't recall the technique but the Japanese did something like that but used iron/steel filings mixed with the clay.

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My opinion is that these are carbide crystals formed during heat treat. I use 5160 (a cousin of 52100 to some degree) and have actually cultivated and pursued these large carbide structures as they addd massive amounts of abrasion resistance to the blade. They could be spots caused by oil or all kinds of other things but I have seen and photographed/documented a similar phenomenon many times in my own blades and optimized my heat treat to cultivate the formation of these spots.

 

UtsuriNSpots.jpg

 

Sorry for the large picture but they are necessary to see the spots in the proper context. You'll see in the pix above that some of the black spots actually follow lines of segregated alloy in the blade and it is my opion that these large and very hard structures form along lines of segregated chromium. They can actually be refined by manipulating the thermal history and temperature to make really cool swirls and lines of carbides in the final blade.

 

It's a good thing if it's what I think they are.

 

Brian

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Hi Guys.

 

If you dont mind here is my two cents....

 

In 52100 and 5160 has Cr in it 0,7 up to 1,5%

So I think looks of steel that is unsolved Cr ( large glusters)

Spots seams to show abowe martensite edge, transitional zone up to pearlite body of blade.

 

I think "nie" and "nioi" can be used better whit tamahagane , sens steel it self is totally different / to refer to modern

factory steel´s like 52100 or 5160

 

 

Even so I like looks of it :D

 

 

BR

 

Niko

Edited by Niko Hynninen

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In 52100 and 5160 has Cr in it 0,7 up to 1,5%

So I think looks of steel that is unsolved Cr ( large glusters)

Spots seams to show abowe martensite edge, transitional zone up to pearlite body of blade.

 

I think "nie" and "nioi" can be used better whit tamahagane , sens steel it self is totally different / to refer to modern

factory steel´s like 52100 or 5160

 

 

Even so I like looks of it :D

 

 

BR

 

Niko

 

Niko (in my opinion) is spot on...I think these little black spots could be clusters of carbides that have precipitated out because all of the available chromium was not "in solution" when the blade was quenched. It can be very attractive and functional when manipulated but very few people are differentially hardening low alloy steels because of the common misconception that low alloy steels cannot yield a hamon with sufficient contrast. But there is a lot of experimentation yet to be done with this idea and I salute (and encourage..) anyone who is differentially hardening 52100, 5160, O1, L6 or the like.

 

hirahamon1.JPG

 

If this idea is jiggled a little and manipulated one can get some pretty interesting effects with lines of segregated alloys and clusters of crystaline structure in low alloy steel.

 

hirahamon2.JPG

 

I don't think these large clusters and the smaller lines of indistinct crystaline structure can properly be called 'nie" or "nioi" *BuT* I do think the principles might be the same...I think the Japanese smiths

learned how to manipulate how much carbon was in solution and that some schools learned to cultivate similar effects in steel with little or no alloy in the steel. You can get carbide formations in plain 10XX steels like this by heating to the bottom end of critical and limiting the time before the quench. This mean that all of the carbon is not in solution and ends up producing larger carbide crystals instead of Martensite as the blade transforms after the quench.

 

Good stuff. I like this blade, Fred, and would encourage you to study what you have done and photograph/document it so that further experiments along this line can allow you to see how far this can be taken. I have always wanted to try 52100 but it is not commonly available in bar stock and I have not the ability to forge stock for my own use.

 

Do this again please. B)

 

Brian

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Wow, to think that this simple question would get me so many learned responses from such high caliber craftsmen(and Ladies(Dee you do most excellent work!!))leaves my humble self speachless.I am just a guy trying to learn to make something that I LOVE to do be the best that it can be. Your clear and knowelegeable answers have helped me understand much better what is going on inside the steel that I am using,And I thank you ALL for all your comments and encouragement.

I have been playing with 52100 and 5160 for a few years now, and have just edge quenched them in the past. This clay HT is so new to me that I dont quite know what to do to make them look thier best. Most of my blades have been polished to a mirror shine or satin finish so, I have only seen the faint temper line( til I polish it out) I will continue to work toword the High standards that I have seen in all your work (everyone of you that have posted) Once again Thanks!

 

Fred

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what are you doing to clean the blade before you etch?

wash in HOT water with dish soap then wipe dry with soft cotton cloth.

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