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wootz-chemical composition and hardness


J.Smith
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If Greg is willing to sacryfise the blade he forged from my ingot - we can see how much C is there.

 

How do you analyse steel...?

There is no need to sacryfise the blade for analysis...at least in here..

There will be small burn mark in it though...but nothing more.

 

different analysing methods MAY give totally diffent result...even I think they shodl NOT do that.

 

Lookign FRWD to see that analysis

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Niko, I have NO place to make such analysis. I found a company that asks a piece of steel about 50mmX50mmX10mm and it costs$60 plus shipping and some other charges if I need the official prints. That is unacceptable for me.

If you have the place to analyse, and it will take smaller piece of steel I'll be happy to send you few.

www.artandknife.com

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Hi Dmitry

 

yes.. i have blade..

can you email me your postal address, i will post it to you right away

 

take care

Greg

 

 

Greg, do you still have the blade? Just out of curiosity can you analyse it?

otherwise I will have to cook another ingot of around 2.5-3%

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Niko, I have NO place to make such analysis. I found a company that asks a piece of steel about 50mmX50mmX10mm and it costs$60 plus shipping and some other charges if I need the official prints. That is unacceptable for me.

If you have the place to analyse, and it will take smaller piece of steel I'll be happy to send you few.

 

Price of analysis ( whit out size) is allmost same in here...OR even higher..so I think would be best if you analyse your steel some were cheaper than sending it other side of globe.

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Greg, I do not need the blade. Keep it, it's yours. I was just qurious how much C is in it.

 

Niko. ;)

That's what I hear from everyone. But nobody says they payd for the analysis :D

Ok I promised to ask for the print of 3% wootz paper. I'll do my best. And I'd like to cook some more C-rich ingots.

www.artandknife.com

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Hi Dmitry

 

i can spark test the blade tang... and make a comparison with some known samples that i have in shop.. eg compare it to W1, O1, 3% carb pig iron, etc... and i could give a rough ball park estimate of carbon content

 

it is definitely in the ultra high carbon range... matrix is nice and black and enough carbide

DSC05056.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/dimenickel/Dmitry%20Wootz/DSC05053.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/dimenickel/Dmitry%20Wootz/DSC05054.jpg

 

otherwise, i'm not sure what else i can do... it is no problem so send it back... as it is your steel.. by the way, it was a pleasure to forge it out.. and i feel its very good steel..

 

take care

Greg

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  • 2 years later...

Verhoeven published an article with a synopsis of historic wootz analyses, giving these ranges:

C 1.0-1.87%

Mn 0.005-0.014%

Si 0.005-0.11%

S 0.007-0.038%

P 0.026-0.206%

Cu 0.03-0.18%

Cr <0.01%

Ni 0.008-0.07%

 

So the C is very low, Si, Mn and Cr very high – what were you using as source materiel?

If your furnace is hot enough, you can get low C melts, good thing is they forge out really easy.

;)

 

 

Wait, I'm confused; wouldn't a carbon content of 1-1.8% push a steel's properties into the brittle range? Is this being mitigated by the the high copper/silicon values?

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Wait, I'm confused; wouldn't a carbon content of 1-1.8% push a steel's properties into the brittle range? Is this being mitigated by the the high copper/silicon values?

 

 

 

while i am still new the the forums and the subject of wootz, i have been buried in the chemistry of steel for a few weeks and have come to understand Wootz as less a high carbon steel, and more of a ultra fine grained White Cast Iron. it is a very high carbon content, which is made usable in blades due to the fine grain/dendrite formation caused by the unique carbonization and more importantly the slow progression from molten to alpha-phase iron. the very slow cooling process seems to allow a very fine cementite network to form within the steel, allowing for basically softer, flexable mild steel embedded in a network of carbide that makes Wootz a superior blade steel.

 

basically, true Wootz is specifically Non-Homogeneous, therefore does not follow the general rule of higher carbon = hard brittle steel.

 

anyone please correct me if i am totally off, i am still a bit of a beginner at this and this is just how i have come to understand the chemistry of steel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. if what i said is true, hardening and tempering are useless with wootz, how does hardening and tempering affect wootz blades?

Edited by Jon Depinet
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Try thinking about it this way: wootz is a process by which you can make clean tool steel from less refined material, analogous to the folding of tamahagane by the Japanese, or the carburizing & piling of iron to make shear steel.

Since the steel becomes liquid in the wootz process, the impurities separate out by flotation and you get to skip the repeated folding. B)

Jomsvikingar Raða Ja!

http://vikingswordsmith.com

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while i am still new the the forums and the subject of wootz, i have been buried in the chemistry of steel for a few weeks and have come to understand Wootz as less a high carbon steel, and more of a ultra fine grained White Cast Iron. ......

 

basically, true Wootz is specifically Non-Homogeneous, therefore does not follow the general rule of higher carbon = hard brittle steel.

 

anyone please correct me if i am totally off, i am still a bit of a beginner at this and this is just how i have come to understand the chemistry of steel.

p.s. if what i said is true, hardening and tempering are useless with wootz, how does hardening and tempering affect wootz blades?

 

well, it can be hardenend and tempered (makes it even easier to show the structure then)

I have done it and many others before and after :D

by the way, a couple of weeks of studies is not sufficient to write about "true wootz" :angry:

 

there are those who read about the "wonders" of wootz and want it for their swords and knives and get strange thoughts...

and then there are those who dive into the making

and find out incredible things

it does do things with you, probably a kind of magic chemistry in your mind :ph34r::rolleyes:

 

as a pro in the field of addictions I can only warn you...

  • Like 1

Jokke

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well, it can be hardenend and tempered (makes it even easier to show the structure then)

I have done it and many others before and after :D

by the way, a couple of weeks of studies is not sufficient to write about "true wootz" :angry:

 

there are those who read about the "wonders" of wootz and want it for their swords and knives and get strange thoughts...

and then there are those who dive into the making

and find out incredible things

it does do things with you, probably a kind of magic chemistry in your mind :ph34r::rolleyes:

 

as a pro in the field of addictions I can only warn you...

 

please dont think i think i know it all, i truly am just coming to terms with basic metallurgy. but i am coming at this from a very scientific perspective, starting with the phase table for Iron.

 

 

i think wootz is a fascinating topic, and i am hopeful that someday i can start making it myself. for the time being i can not, i live at about 6000 ft above sea level, and only have means for an atmospheric propane furnace, which i fear will not get hot enough to melt iron... but i will not know until i get it built, and money is tight for me. i do have an addictive personality and intend to invest myself in steel making of all types, and Wootz is a beautiful steel.

 

so, if it can be hardened then i have to rethink my assumptions. at some point i suppose i just need to start making it, and testing my hypotheses. anyone have advice on an atmospheric furnace? i am thinking castable refractory with the ceramic itc-100 final coat. i need to get the inside up to ~2800F... or rather, how hot does wootz need to be heated? 2800 is beyond the refractory that i have been looking into...

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Brittleness depends upon several things as does ductility......carbon percentages yes, but also WHERE that carbon is and in what form. If you have a small percentage of the carbon in graphite then your assumptions on total chem analysis are on, but what that carbon is doing could be quite off.

 

As to the 3% carbon...one could do a bit of that material on a firebrick and set it into the forge with an accurate thermocouple and some borax flux. Note the temp when it melts and then you have very rough idea of carbon levels.

Spark testing is good, but again it depends upon where the carbon is and in what form.

Case in point...I have some 52100 here that is factory spherodize annealed..it does not really throw a sparkler at all when ground, but once I forged it into a bar it did so as I would expect. the reason is the location and form of the carbon.

I'll see if I can grab some images today.

 

I have been wrangling this animal for some many years now and still have basic fundamental questions about what it is and how it does what it does.

There is a resurgence in small batch steel and I guess, at some level I should be more alert, but I find I have less time than I thought I would.

 

I try not to pay attention to what others do as it can pull me off topic as I am easily distracted by ......squirrel.....

 

Ric

Richard Furrer

Door County Forgeworks

Sturgeon Bay, WI

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