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Shinogi-Zukuri Katana Collaberation with JPH


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Well Jim sent me some more laminate steel to forge. He said this batch was special and woudl not tell me what it was. Only that I should forge the steel very hot. Well I did and the steel moved better than anything I have ever forged I had to rethink my hammer stroked when forging, as many of you know I prefer short glancing blows moving a little steel at a time. This stuff moved alot with each blow so I had to slow down and focus on where the hammer head struck the steel.

 

I forged the blade out in less than 8 hours it formed that quickly. I was afraid of warping and stress and delaminations and such but much to my surprise, nothing of the sort. The hada is very interesting.

 

The steel if I can remember correctly is 1060? with meteoric iron in it.

 

The Nagasa is 27" and the motohaba is just a hair under 1 3/8" it tapers down to 1" at the Yokote. The blade has a high shinogi line, and tapers in a bit the thickness at the mune is close to 1/4 which is inside my usual limits but the shinogi line is 3/8". The nakago is 12" as Jim wants alot of steel in the Tsuka.

 

So here are some pictures for you to enjoy.

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John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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Here are the rest of the images

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John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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Thanks Tate I live with the fear of pre heat treat. I have the blade sitting with clay on it waiting for the weekend.

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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YEEHAH! That is going to be gorgeous.

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Thanks guys I was real surprised to see the hada showing through like it did and not forging errors and no delaminations. Lets hope the heat treat goes well.

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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John:

 

Day-um that looks good and the hada is already...showing...that's the Fe/Ni meteoric material there...remember oil quench...

 

Boy this is looking good....yeah.I like the nakago to run down the lenbth of the tsuka as far as possible.....that way you are holding onto the steel of the blade and not just the wood on the tsuka...the way I cut I need that...since I have been told I cut like a peasant swinging a sledge hammer....

 

JPH

If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... 

Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p>

I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way...

 

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Wow thanks guys

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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Sam:

 

I got the "title" of "Hage Bokatsu"(Bald, educated "barbarian") from Senpai Sensei (I am Kohai Sensei) at our dojo and well..in all honesty it fits and every time I am told I cut like a peasant swinging a hammer I simply say thank you....it is an inside joke but most folks wouldn't understand it unless they know my background. I can get some pretty extreme power behind my cuts and what I lack in finese I make up in brute force..still, you got to have the form and technique down or else you can damage or destroy a sword PDQ. Japanese swords are quite "delicate" really and that is why they are such sticklers on technique, technique, technique and form...

 

I spoke in great detail with Brother John about what I was looking for and being a collector as well as a maker I like to have examples of other's work as well so I told him I want a meat cleaver sword...I think this one will fill that role quite adequately...(.IF it survives HT.....we haven't been having too much luck in that regard.).. meat cutter cause I have way too many mat cutters and there is a major difference between the two when it comes to blade geometry and niku especialy...

 

So I am now sitting here waiting for John to thaw out and hopefully we will get a nice hamon as we can get with oil and then it's mounting time...Once it is in my hand I will post pics as I do the rest....

 

Bro John does have enough of that bar left to make a nice o-tanto or maybe even a waki...that's up to him....I am curious to see what he comes up with for it....

 

JPH

Edited by JPH

If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... 

Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p>

I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way...

 

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Jim you are so right, I have the blade clayed up all I need to get is some Diesel fuel to add to the hydraulic fluid, and then I will be ready for quenching.

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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lol nope I am flattered that you guys like my work

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello!!

 

I just heard back from Brother John the other day and the blade DID actually survive HT and he is all jazzed up cause as he put it.. "We got a Hamon..and how".. YeeeeeHaaaa!! About time we got one that WORKED..!!! This is one of the major "drawbacks" of doing a coll-lab with someone..everyone works different..I coulda probably "saved" the first one..{I knew taht it had a couple of "problems" when I sent it but I wanted to see what John would do..}..but I have been doing this 40 odd years and John hasn't been at this "all that long" so far anyways..So did he learn form the mishap?? I think he did and that IS what MATTERS MOST....passing on of knowledge and practise....(I gotta find someone to pass what I know along to...I ain't getting any younger ya know...and believe me...I keep under the "radar" for a reason...just need to find the right "one" with that "fire in their belly" who ain't afraid of getting burned when they dance with Bealzabub)....

 

I am far more that excited to say the least...Bro J. said "There is some funky Hada" going on "in there with swirls and curls and other stuff".... and I just gotta laugh cause I know what I did to that bar when I was welding it and there's all sorts of weird and wonderful "stuff" in there as far as the Hada goes.... His description of where it is "progress wise" right now has my mouth watering... Plus that Fe/Ni meteorite will make it really "esoteric" in a sense.... Maybe it'll cut machinegun barrels and trees in two!!??

 

Now he has told me he will be updating this thread in a day or three once he gets the polishing down to a point where a photo will actually show something..He did tell me, as I said above... that "We got Hamon" and it's "there and showing in a light etch"... I find that amusing cause I knew we'd get one all along..and probably one of the nicest hamons one can expect to get using oil..Now that I know Brother John's work habits...And when you do a coll-lab..you GOTTA know those..Just ask Mr Fogg.....he knows alot more about this coll-lab stuff than I will ever even THINK about knowing....

 

Anyway..I am sure you all will find the photos John will be putting up really interesting..I know I will...I already have the furniture set asdie for this one..

 

JPH (29 days and counting to RPFS and I ain;t got ANY swords done yet..)

 

Anyway that's the latest Update...

Edited by JPH

If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... 

Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p>

I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way...

 

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Wow, seeing this, and your beautiful file work in particular, makes me want to try forging another sword. I love how nicely you've got the geometry filed in. Really lovely work.

 

Every damn one of these I've ever done has cracked in heat treating. I don't mind screwing things up; I figure I learn more from my mistakes than from my successes, but the problem with this type of blade is you have so much time into it by the time you get to heat treat that it's kind of heart breaking. Still, maybe it's time to add yet another cracked katana to my already extensive collection!

 

Btw, do you generally forge in a curvature? I've always only seen these forged straight, with the curve induced in heat treating.

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David thanks for the kind words. I take a great pride in the fact that I can file as well as I do. As for heat treating I for one am a risk taker, or atleast according to most since I use water as my quench medium. Now this katana was quenched in a hydraulic oil / Diesel fuel mix. And then heated which is a whole other story to tell. LOL.....

 

As for the sori or curvature I decided to forge the sori in as I was quenching in oil which most of the time willnot yield much sori at all. Now water and W-1 or W-2 will yield nice sori. But if I have a specific geometry they i will forge it in.

 

As for cracking blades since I build my heat treat forge which is used solely for heat treating. I can control the temp much easier and can hold the blade at temp while letting it soak and then quenching it.

 

So like you I have a nice cracked blade pile, but what the heck I see blades in them as well and redo them and make them into something else.

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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Now this katana was quenched in a hydraulic oil / Diesel fuel mix. And then heated which is a whole other story to tell. LOL.....

 

As for the sori or curvature I decided to forge the sori in as I was quenching in oil which most of the time will not yield much sori at all. Now water and W-1 or W-2 will yield nice sori.

 

That makes perfect sense. I didn't realize you were quenching into oil. I've been told that usually quenching into oil results in some reduction (or reverse) curvature. (I've always wondered whether this effect would be present when quenching into a fast oil, like Parks 50 for example.) In any event, that's a very interesting, smart approach -- forge in the curvature, then quench in oil. Less chance of breakage, and maybe more control over the ultimate shape of the blade. (Though maybe also harder to get that nice, organic curvature that a water quench produces, however.)

 

Thank you for sharing this. Really interesting stuff.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello:

 

Heard from Brother John, and as John puts is..the Hada is really strange. (Heh heh heh,,,I know what I did to that bar so I know it is...) and the hamon is starting to come up a bit better so look for some pics of the beast here in a day or to..at least that's what John said..he is at 220 on the grinding right now so he said he is very pleased with it so I am axnously awaiting photos myself...

 

JPH

If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... 

Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p>

I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way...

 

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:D:D:D:D WOW cant wait to see this one !!!!! I'm almost wetting myself with anticapation!! a collab between JPH (my hero,love your books they have been a great help and inspiration!) and the infamous John Smith!! I cant wait to see some more picts, this should be GREAT! :lol::D:)

 

Fred

A bad day forging... is still better than pretty much anything else

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Brother John:

 

I am drooling here for poics..and I am sure that others are as well..so hint hint..

 

(From what our good Bro J.S. has conveyed to me the hada changes all along the length of the blade and it's what I call my "funky chicken" hada....)

 

Now I am a patient man and John said he just got the 220 grit stones in he was waiting for and the hamon is stating to show but I am on tenderhooks here...If'n this one works..maybe Mr Smith and I can do this on a regular basis...

 

As it is I am working on a 34" ayasugihada O-katana in the Shinogi-zukuri with two bo-hi in kobuse with a laminate (725 layer "Jacket") with the Fe/Ni meteoric iron/1045 mix welded with 1070 for myself...

 

So come on John..the suspewnse is a killer..we want pics!!

 

Your "partner in crime"

 

JPH

If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... 

Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p>

I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way...

 

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Ok

 

I am sorry for such a long time to post, was waiting for polishing stones. And had the flu.

 

So having said that I have polished on this blade for a about a week and a half. I have roughed it to 220 grit and am about to change stones. The hada is very funky and I wish my polish job showed more activity but it is there and very funky.

 

I will be taking more photo's as I go higher in grit.

 

I hope you can see the details

 

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John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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Oh P.S.

 

His blade is in the middle sorry guys.

John W Smith
www.smith-forge.org

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to sword]

This you can trust

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