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blacklionknives

quenching/differential heat treating a sword blade

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i made a sword out of a leaf spring (5160?) and found out why railroad track is not used as a serious anvil...its not flat. the sword has a flat edge from the hammer and what looks like a nice hollow grind on each side. i hope it doesnt twist when quenching...which is my question...

...do i edge quench each edge like with a one edged blade or do i dip the whole blade in oil tip down?

i have seen it done that way in videos but it seems it will harden the thick center too.

... it might help to add...i started with 5/16"x1", the blade is now 1 3/4" wide and is still1/4" or more thick in center, so it will cool slower there i'd think

 

this is the largest knife i have made(36" overall) so i am tempted to just hang it on the wall, but know i will regret not doing it right once i peen on the hilt and cross the point of no return.

 

thanks all,

edwin

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Well, I must preface that I'm new to blacksmithing, and particularly new to bladesmithing, so this is mostly speculation, though it's based on some research and some experience.

That being said, I have an answer that is part answer, and part more question. Sorry in advance for something that seems vaguely like thread highjacking.

 

For a double edged blade, I think an edge quench as you're describing it could only work if you quenched each side, one at a time, but after one heat, which I don't think would work, as quenching causes heat to be "sucked" away from other areas of the blade. To cool one edge sufficiently so that it would maintain it's hardness and still have enough heat in the opposite edge to harden it afterward seems... impossible. I think the way a double edged blade is hardened differentially is either with clay treatment or differential tempering. Clay seems the most viable option of these.

And now the question part, here's what I don't know, and please, someone correct my thinking, in a double edged blade with a thicker ridge, would the blade be differentially hardened simply by virtue of having more mass in the middle? would it have a soft core and a hard surface, or would the surface of the ridge be hardened through?

 

I guess, to end on a helpful note, I have to say that you will need to quench the whole blade, probably tip down would be best, and either clay coat (If you're lucky you might get hamon activity!) or temper the middle somehow.

-Morgan

 

Edit: Forgot about your original question! you might try to flatten the blade out by hammering on a different surface, or if you have the time and the drive, you could modify your railroad anvil, or flat another block of steel. Mild would do for this job, and if you're not doing serious shaping on it, it might not even need to be too heavy.

Edited by MorganCD

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Edwin,

 

Tip down into the quench with a double edged, diamond cross section. Quench into warm (120-160 degrees Fahrenheit) oil. Correct your cross section prior to quenching. Keeping the geometry the same on each bevel will greatly increase your chances of success. You can forge the bevels flat or just take the "hollow" out with an angle grinder but, get the bevel on each side the same. Alternately, you can put a "hollow" in on the flat bevels so that the geometry is symmetrical. Leave your edge about the thickness of a nickel prior to hardening. Be sure to thoroughly normalize prior to hardening, especially if you did any grinding or filing on the blade. Having the entire blade heated evenly is extremely important and will help greatly to reduce warping in the quench. Good luck.

 

~Bruce~

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hmmmmmmmm,

yeah morgan,

i think i could cool the edges quickly and maintain heat longer in the center as it is so much thicker. heat from the center would travel and overheat the hardened edges if i wasnt careful. trial and ...error is not fun so much thought and, trial i suppose is inevitable.

in fact when normalizing i heated blade to critical temp and as it was cooling it had a beautiful glow down the spine. i must video and post on you tube.it looked cool. point being it stayed much hotter in center according to the nice glow. maybe i will shoot the video now???

 

im so easily distracted:)

does normalizing need to cool slowly or at room temp?

 

anyways it will be a cool video?

Edited by blacklionknives

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Edwin,

 

Tip down into the quench with a double edged, diamond cross section. Quench into warm (120-160 degrees Fahrenheit) oil. Correct your cross section prior to quenching. Keeping the geometry the same on each bevel will greatly increase your chances of success. You can forge the bevels flat or just take the "hollow" out with an angle grinder but, get the bevel on each side the same. Alternately, you can put a "hollow" in on the flat bevels so that the geometry is symmetrical. Leave your edge about the thickness of a nickel prior to hardening. Be sure to thoroughly normalize prior to hardening, especially if you did any grinding or filing on the blade. Having the entire blade heated evenly is extremely important and will help greatly to reduce warping in the quench. Good luck.

 

~Bruce~

thanks

why heat the oil first, i know theres a reason but it will be 200 in a heartbeat.?

and to late for nickel thickness i was triing for tribal indigeanous no power tool(exept the propane haha)its closer to a dime.

could someone reccomend a normalizing process, as i am second guessing my every move.

 

edwin

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Edwin,

Normalizing is cooling in air at room temp... sounds like you are doing that OK.. the "standard method" normalizes up to 3 times( letting it cool to room temp each time) to refine the grain size.. any more than three times has been said to not effective... if you buried it in some ash and cool it slow enough it is annealing....

the oil is warmed so it doesn't have quite as much thermal shock to the steel ..Good luck with your HT...

Dick

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Good advice from everyone. One more thing: 5160 is a deep-hardening steel, so you are not going to get much of a differential hardness on a double-edged blade. Temper to light blue after you harden it, though, and it'll be tougher than you may have thought.

 

It's counterintuitive, but warm oil is a faster quench than cold oil. It has to do with viscosity and vapor jackets and such. Don't worry about how much the blade will heat the oil during the quench.

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Wow! Quite a learning curve, from wee knives to big ones! I had anticipated an edge quench in a roof gutter filled with a Wayne Goddard-type goop.

 

If I need to quench vertically, I have a few questions regarding volume. Is a 3-4 inch pipe filled with motor oil, animal fat, melted candles going to work or will I need to go to a larger diameter of cylinder and a particular quenchant?

 

Otherwise, I have re-worked the profile so I have a slight hollow grind on all four sides and will continue normalizing as advised.

 

Again, thanks so much for all your advice.

 

Edwin

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If I need to quench vertically, I have a few questions regarding volume. Is a 3-4 inch pipe filled with motor oil, animal fat, melted candles going to work or will I need to go to a larger diameter of cylinder and a particular quenchant?

Good question.

 

Having your pipe filled with a solid material will not work for quenching a sword into - unless you preheat the quenchant to liquidus. Be aware that as the animal fat/melted candles becomes liquid it will expand. Also, as you add heat, i.e. quenching your blade, the liquid quenchant will expand! More volume in the quench tank is good because you can allow for the expansion/contraction with change in temperature. More volume in the quench tank is good because the larger volume of quenchant will absorb more heat... Prior to bursting into flame! Getting the quenchant hot enough to ignite spontaneously is not good. Not good for the quenchant because, it deteriorates faster and the properties of the quench can change, i.e. it may not cool at the same rate as it used to. Not good for the sword because, once the quench gets hot enough it cannot absorb additional heat and this could affect your hardening. I have 9 gallons of oil in one of the old, metal, 10 gallon milk cans and this works quite well. I can quench quite a bit before the oil gets too hot and has to cool off. Also, if it ever does get hot enough to ignite, the lid is airtight and will suffocate the flame when dropped into place. Only thing is, I cannot quench anything more than about 18 inches long.

 

Motor oil is not the best to quench into, for various reasons. That said, your steel, if it is 5160, should harden in just about any slow (read oil) quenchant. However, if your leaf spring happens to be made from a steel other than 5160 the quenchant will need to be fast enough to get it to harden. I use a version of "Goddard's Goop" (a mixture of lard, paraffin, and transmission fluid - I left the tranny fluid out of mine) when I'm traveling and it works quite well (and does not spill all over the place!) You can use straight transmission fluid if you are not concerned about moving your tank around. My next workshop splurge will be to replace my lard/paraffin mixture with a lard/beeswax one - that way I can use the mixture to season my ironwork, including items that will touch food such as forks.

 

~Bruce~

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The only way that I can think of to quench a double edged blade is point first into the quenchant; there is no way to edge quench it. If you want to try to do a differential hardening on a double edged blade you will have to do something like coat the middle of the blade with a clay coating that will retard cooling long enough to get inside the nose of the cooling curve and allowing pearletic steel to form. I don't have an ITT diagram for 5160. but from what I can estimate from related steels, it would have to retard the cooling below about 1100 degrees F. for about two seconds. 9260, which I do have an ITT diagram for and is another candidate for the steel your springs are made from, would be about the same. If you can't achieve that then you will need to look at differential tempering.

 

Doug Lester

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I think, with 5160, that differential tempering may be the easiest route. Temper the whole thing at about 400F for a couple of 1 hour cycles, and then sand off any color. Then, use a propane or acetylene torch to temper the spine to light blue like Longmire said. You will get a very tough blade from 5160 if you do that.

 

I quench everything point down in oil except short blades with clay. Long blades with clay, I still quench point down in a 4" diameter, 36" pipe that I keep 30" of canola oil in. I heat the oil by quenching a couple or three (in the New England winter it takes more) pieces of scrap first.

 

I used to use a small garbage can full of oil, but the changes in temp caused the seems to rupture. The pipe with welded bottom is better. I hate to admit, but I bought the pipe tank for a very small fee off of another bladesmith. I can't weld for jack using the modern ways.

 

kc

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oh man, guys where do i start?

this site rocks.

so many responses it is hard to keep up.

 

not to mention it will be weeks until i get geered up with ??? gallons of fat, candles, and ...cooking oil, i guess.

anyways,

 

kevin,

i understood alan longmire to say to heat the whole blade to a light blue(my guess is light blue is 400ish)???.

 

i think i will use pvc since it is so easy to fab up...and line it with steel so as to not melt a whole and have a meltdown flameoff in the back yard.??? i'm still engineering that thing too. and yeah, cooking oil!!! i hear so many talk of tranny fluid and recall hearing that tranny fluid is linseed oil or close to it.no, was it flax seed oil?

 

bruce,

i like your food grade approach(it helps when talking the forge fairy/wife into letting me use the kitchen oven if it doesnt stink too)

i read goddards book and started with grease from the barbecue and added candles and did not have any tranny fluid and it works great...as long as it is preheated as you said.

 

and thanks again every one else too.

this is gonna make small knives seem like a breeze.

i just got my propane forge and couldnt leave the leaf springs alone...and i'm over my head in metalurgical urges.

:unsure:

edwin

p.s.can i post pics?

i got kicked off another site for showing something i made :(

Edited by blacklionknives

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Edwin,

Of course you can post your pics here.... the only requirements is that you size them correctly and they are not obscene as in porn or such... It you are not sure about sizing there are a couple of posts on this site that explain how to do it...

A picture is worth a thousand words like they say and is the best way for all of us to "know" you work... It is the best way for us to see what you have done right and could be done differently... and is the best way for you to "explain" what you have done... So by all means post your work...smile.gif

 

this is a blade forum but we like to see what else people make too so if you have stuff not blade related you can make a note of that in the topic heading so someone knows

they are not going to see a knife...

 

Dick

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I'd worry a little about the PVC, just in case the oil catches fire. I agree it's fast, cheap, and simple to do compared to steel, but I couldn't use my giant weedburner torch to preheat my oil with it. ;)

 

What both Kevin and I meant with the torch is to apply the heat on the central ridge of the blade in hopes of having even heat from the center out to the edges, hopefully getting the center a little hotter for added toughness. That's much easier said than done on a double-edged blade, especially if it's narrower than 2 inches or so. I just try as hard as I can not to overheat the edges and let the rest of it do what it will. You do have to apply the torch flame to the thickest part of the blade to make sure it gets tempered. I usually do this three times, polishing off the oxides in between each time, because the torch is not as accurate as an oven.

 

5160 and 9260 are pretty forgiving of tempering issues in the blue range, so just go slow and pay very close attention.

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Another way to differentially heat treat is to heat up a thick flat brass rod and then hold it on the center of the blade. Round might work but, because of the shape, it will have reduced surface contact and a lower rater of heat transfer. You will have to experiment on how hot to get the brass rod. Just like with using a flame, you will have to polish the steel bright and watch for color change. If you are going to use fire, try a torch that puts out a smaller flame to heat a little more slowly. The idea with either method is to apply the heat only to the center of the blade.

 

Doug Lester

Edited by Doug Lester

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I have only used this method once on a dagger, it worked fine. I did a full quench and temper on the blade. I took two pieces of copper tube and split them down their length slightly longer than the blade, don't cut it in half, just split one side. I crimped the copper tubing to the edges of the blade and hung the blade above a 5 gallon bucket of water with the tip of the blade and the ends of the copper in the water. I hooked plastic tubing to each of the copper tubes at the top and using a tee fitting to tie the two into one. Hooked a bird-bath pump to the plastic tube and dropped it in the bucket and plugged it in. As long as your copper tube is crimped and making contact with the blade and you pump water thru the tube, the copper will act as a heat-sink and keep the edges cool while you play a tourch up and down the center spine front and back evenly to draw a spring temper. I had to wrap some wire arround the copper tubes and blade to keep everything positioned. I actully had to put a c-clamp on the plastic line to cut back the flow of water as it was gushing out of the copper tube and running down the blade. The water keeps the copper cool, the copper keeps the blade edges cool. I don't know anything about swords, their hardness or edge geometry, but the dagger blade was 10 inches long, it seemed like a sword blade at the time compared to the 2 to 3 inch skinning knives I was making.

 

I used a dremel with the little cut-off disk to split the copper tubing, good luck splitting two sword lenth peices

 

Master Smith Greg Neely told me about this method during the second week of the Basic Bladesmithing Class at the ABS School in Old Washington.

 

Steve Seib

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A thought: The need for differential heat treating is usually to get a blade that has both a hard edge and a tough/flexible spine.

 

A sword is not like a EDC knife, in that the edge geometry is more obtuse and it doesn't see the same amount of use. It probably isn't necessary to differentially heat treat a sword unless you are doing so to obtain a hamon (which is tough with 5160).

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wow.

so many ideas. i will be referencing this stuff for a while and re asking so many more questions raised from this topic.

 

i will try these procedures just for experimentation and i am sure it will be tricky and frustrating as edges suck heat from the thick center so fast and be fore you know it the edge flies through the color spectrum faster than you can process whats happnin :angry:

 

but on this one it will be for fun because after reading this article:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_bladehardness.html

...i am convinced if i do any method at all i would baffle a medieval smith and if he could he would have me committed as a lunatic or tried for heresy.

 

what i mean is according to this article if they heat treated at all, they were slack quenched and very inconsistant...

or masterfully done in a way that hardness doesnt reveal???

 

again thanks everyone.

 

i will do my best, but will always be able to say with a wink, "its not an attempt at perfection, its a medeival sword."

lol

 

not to mention, steves sinature quote says it all. i love that quote.

 

edwin

 

p.s.

i wonder if the art of surviving a swordfight was skill first...and thus aquiring all the "best heat sreated" swords for ones collection :)

Edited by blacklionknives

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A thought: The need for differential heat treating is usually to get a blade that has both a hard edge and a tough/flexible spine.

 

A sword is not like a EDC knife, in that the edge geometry is more obtuse and it doesn't see the same amount of use. It probably isn't necessary to differentially heat treat a sword unless you are doing so to obtain a hamon (which is tough with 5160).

 

 

good point, what then would you recomend?

 

side note. on looking at the numbers on the hardness scale and examining this from the article i posted a link to:

The importance of selecting several points on a blade to test can be exhibited in this example from Some Early Medieval Swords in The Wallace Collection and Elsewhere by David Edge and Dr. Alan R Williams, which details the variance one can expect in a medieval sword.4

 

the pic didnt show heres the link again, you'll see it about halfway down:

 

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_bladehardness.html

 

 

 

The diagram above details the hardness found along the edge and the middle of a possibly 12th century sword (A 457) in The Wallace Collection, London (Sword B in graph 1). The sword was tested at 5 cm intervals along a cutting edge and the middle with the results averaging 211 VPH in the middle and 279 VPH along the edge.4

 

i cant help but wonder if the method of "differential hardnin" used in antiquity was relative to a natural phenomenon that probably has a scientific name??? anyways, if an item of different thicknesses (like a blade)is heated the thin areas will cool faster making them harder and slower softer...

i wonder if that may have happened on the sword shown in the diagramdiagram

 

i dont know if this is possible on a small scale of a sword blade, but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, you've probably noticed when a blade is heated to critical temp and normalized the thin is black long before the think. maybe it just looks cool.lol???

 

any thoughts any one?

 

and steve, as per your quote would you just think a good quence would suffice.

 

...last thought. how are the leaf springs originally done, cause they seem sword worthy right off the truck.

Edited by blacklionknives

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Edwin,

your intuition is correct... the thickness does play a part in differential hardening... that is why you see as a Hamon some times even if you don't use clay... the clay allows you to manipulate where that hamon line falls... It takes steel that hardens quick and shallow for this to show up naturaly without clay. Steel like the W 1 & W2 , 1095... the "plain " carbon steels of today and the steels they made way back in the day and the home made steel of today as an example...

The springs in cars and trucks is not a shallow hardening steel... some people have gotten hamon with clay using it...

 

Dick

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Dick is correct. Pre-industrial steel had little manganese or chromium in it, and is thus very shallow-hardening. Your spring has lots of manganese and either chromium or silicon, and will through-harden quite easily.

 

Somewhere around here there are links to an article in which a Roman spatha and a Merovingian sax blade were given a traditional Japanese polish. Both showed what we now call hamon, solely due to low hardenability, shallow-hardening steel combined with the cross-section that tended to produce a hard edge with a soft core.

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Dick is correct. Pre-industrial steel had little manganese or chromium in it, and is thus very shallow-hardening. Your spring has lots of manganese and either chromium or silicon, and will through-harden quite easily.

 

Somewhere around here there are links to an article in which a Roman spatha and a Merovingian sax blade were given a traditional Japanese polish. Both showed what we now call hamon, solely due to low hardenability, shallow-hardening steel combined with the cross-section that tended to produce a hard edge with a soft core.

 

 

ok, i've been thinking on this for days as i try to come up with a quenching tank.

 

so, does this mean that 5160 is going to harden all the way to center if i do an edge quench, or am i not understanding the deep/shallow hardening phraseology.

 

also, does this mean that after normalizing it is plenty hard?

that seems like a silly question, i know, but i dont quite understand the heating cooling curve chart business yet...

 

also, does anyone know how this was done in more ancient times?

a barrel of lard perhaps. any resources to see.

 

another thing i have been considering (although i understand it not neccessary with 5160)is to dip quench (maybe even quickly in water???)and pull the blade out so the thick holds its heat past 14 seconds or so while cooling the edges, then after 14 seconds clean off the edges and watch for the blue and cool the whole thing .

 

thanks again guys, i really appreciate your comments,

edwin

Edited by blacklionknives

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Okay...

 

The 5160 is going to harden all the way to the center in that part that's in the oil. The part above the oil is not going to harden as much. Note I said "as much." In thin sections like blades 5160 will harden a little in air, particularly cold moving air. You can use clay to try and retain heat in the spine for a softer structure, but since 5160 has such a huge window of open time before quenching the clay isn't going to do a whole lot. In other words you can wait something like 10 seconds after you pull it out of the fire before you quench and it will still harden. With 1095 you have about a second or it won't fully harden. That's what the purpose of clay is for differential HT, it slows down the cooling rate just enough to give a fully hard edge with a softer back in steels that respond to this treatment, otherwise known as shallow-hardening steels.

 

On a wide single-edged blade of 5160 it's fairly easy to do, and is the number one method of producing a blade that will pass the ABS journeyman performance test. You're thinking double-edged blades, though, and there's not a thing wrong with using 5160 for that. It's a super-tough steel. You'll just need to accept you're not going to be able to do much of a differential HT with it without some experimentation, experience, and special-purpose equipment. The one truly successful method I've heard of involved a large torchlike flame and a water mist above an oil tank... Steve's suggestion on the last page would work as well.

 

5160 in normalized condition is VERY tough. I usually have to spot-anneal before I drill holes in it. However, while extremely tough, it's not hard enough to hold a good working edge for long. That's what the whole point of HT is, trying to reach the right compromise between hardness (and the brittleness that goes with that) and toughness (and the lack of edge holding that goes with that.)

 

In "more ancient" times, they didn't have to worry about too many different alloys, so you'll find water, brine, urine, blood, and things like that as quenching media, some of which were more about superstition than anything else. The urine of a red-headed boy, or that of a billygoat that's been eating nothing but ferns for three days, things like that. Those are all from "On Divers Arts" by a German monk named Theophilus writing around 1100. If Jeroen sees this he can add to it. Quench-hardening seems to be a fairly late adaptation to begin with, in that IIRC the earliest examples show up around 200 AD (?) I don't know when oil entered the picture, but I don't think it did in a really big way until the late 18th century. There's also the molten lead trick, but that's just for springs.

 

As I said on top of this page, pre-industrial steel is shallow-hardening. The sword measurements you linked to are due solely to the geometry of a water-quenched heterogeneously structured low hardenability blade. They were not clayed, copper tubed, or anything like that. It's all about the TTT curve. With a straight carbon steel containing no manganese you have under one second to drop the temperature from 1450 degrees F to 900 degrees F. Thicker parts of the blade will not make it to 900 in time to harden, and so they don't. With 5160, you have close to ten seconds to make that same transition, except you should be starting from 1550 degrees F.

 

Where'd you get the 14 seconds thing? That technique can work on things with a lot of mass like chisels or axes, but not knives or swords. And with 5160, definitely not with water! I think you may be mixing up the "poor man's marquench" method of doing a full quench and holding for a few seconds, pulling the blade and counting to ten (or so) and then back in the oil. This gives the steel a short rest at 450 degrees or so to allow for a tougher final structure, but it's not easy to guess when you're at the right temperature.

 

Then there's what a lot of Japanese-style smiths do, a three second water quench followed by a three second hold in air followed by oil. Again, not for use with 5160. Works great on low-manganese simple steels, though.

 

My recommendation for a sword-length double-edged blade of 5160 is a point-first full quench in warm oil followed by tempering the whole thing to around 450 degrees F. This will give you a very tough, springy, yet hard blade.

 

One final thought: Your spring is not guaranteed to be 5160. ;) It could be 9260, 1070, 6250, or something else. Think about the variables that could throw into your quenching procedure, and you'll start to see why those bladesmiths who consistently get good results in differential HT use only known steels. My last sword was forged from new leafspring stock, but the makers were kind enough to label it as 9260 so I knew what I was dealing with. Being 9260, it was not differentially HT'd. B)

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My recommendation for a sword-length double-edged blade of 5160 is a point-first full quench in warm oil followed by tempering the whole thing to around 450 degrees F. This will give you a very tough, springy, yet hard blade.

 

One final thought: Your spring is not guaranteed to be 5160. ;) It could be 9260, 1070, 6250, or something else. Think about the variables that could throw into your quenching procedure, and you'll start to see why those bladesmihts who consistently get good results in differential HT use only known steels. My last sword was forged from new leafspring stock, but the makers were kind enough to label it as 9260 so I knew what I was dealing with. B)

 

wow,

lots of answers to chew on. theopholus must have been really bored.lol

 

so,

in the last two paragraphs you wrapped it all up...and last paragraph opened up fodder for not sleeping well for a long time. :o

seriously, 3 other possibilities???

whats the likliehood,... how will i compensate :wacko: aaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

the good news is i have enough springs (donated from friends who are awaiting swords and knives of course) that i will be able to run tests on each type(like the toyota springs/probably a japanese version of 5160...)

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Edwin

Yes you can run experiments to find the best method for the piece of spring you are using ... that will teach you some good observation skill qualities to be able to "figure out" how to treat an unknown steel... You could also send out a piece of your stock to be tested... It would cost you and you might be better off spending the money on a "Known steel" to begin with... But if you have a pile of what you know to be the same kind of steel it might be worth having a piece tested....

 

Dick

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