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any additives to speed canola oil quench


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Hey Everyone,

I have now obtained a stock of the low manganese 1075 (which is really supposed to be high-carbon, water hardening steel, since .3% mang is below specs for 1075 but no one knows what you are talking about unless you call it "low manganese 1075). I also have some W2.

 

So, I want to play with clay heat treatments and see what I get. I am also going to use these in pattern welded billets/blades.

 

I don't want to lose them at a high rate, especially the pattern welded ones.

 

So, is there anything I can add to my canola oil that will accelerate the quench speed? I can't find or afford Parks right now. Not until I sell a couple of blades. I don't want to quench damascus in water or brine. I already heat the canola, I am just looking for any additional improvements.

 

You know, fat of an unchristened male child, unicorn urine, whatever works.

 

Kevin

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Somewhere, and I wish I could remember where, someone did a study that found vegetable oils tend to be faster than mineral (petroleum) oils. Warm canola may well be as fast or faster than commercial quenchant. What you really gain by buying commercial quench oils is it is a known grade (tested to make sure each batch performs with-in tolerances just as other batches), additives to reduce flare-up and longevity.

 

ron

Having watched government for some time, it has become obvious that our government is no longer for the people. If the current trend continues, it won't be long untill armed rebellion is required.

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What about the 11 sec mcmaster carr quenching oil? I have talked to a guy who says it works well on 1095 and such. so, it may work for you. Ive used the 28 sec quench and I love it. Good luck

"I have surprised myself with what I can make with simple tools when a definite need arose. I don't think a man knows what he actually can do until he is challenged."- Dick Proennke

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What about the 11 sec mcmaster carr quenching oil? I have talked to a guy who says it works well on 1095 and such. so, it may work for you. Ive used the 28 sec quench and I love it. Good luck

 

Kevin, I've used McMaster 11 second on all my water quench steels w/o a hitch, ever. It's pretty inexpensive and you can buy it in a one gallon jug.

 

Link-o-matic to McQuench

 

It's about $16 for a gallon plus shipping.

 

-Todd

www.toddblades.com

 

"Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009

 

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

 

- George Orwell

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thanks guys. that is what I really want to know - is warm canola oil faster than McMaster Carr's 11 sec?

 

Of course, if there is a way to speed canola up even a little more besides just warming it, I would try it (real techniques, not the joke from the b-movie Warlock that I mentioned above).

 

kc

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Hey Everyone - check this out:

 

P. 233 of the proceedings of the ASM Heat Treating Society said:

 

canola oil quenchants show simillar and in some cases faster cooling rates than mineral oil quenchants

 

canola oil showed (at 120f):

 

1. nearly non-existent vapor phase (good, quick cooling, minimal stess)

2. faster quench rates than mineral oil in 1300f - 1100 f range (better at "hardening")

3. slower quench from 900f - 250f (less stress during martensite formation)

 

 

canola has higher boiling point and flash points than most mineral oil based quenchants, and is preferrable in metallurgic terms to medium and some of the faster mineral oil based commercial quenchants. It does break down faster, though.

 

Now, i can't find a direct comparison go Parks 50, but canola ain't sounding so bad...

 

I am pretty sure Parks is better (it is supposed to be faster in the early phase, about the same during martensite formation), but I don't know if many of the others out there would be.

 

Houghton has been doing it longest, so they may have a better product, too (houghto-k quench is supposed to be faster in the early stages and about same or slower during martensite formation, too).

 

Canola is not bad, but the metallography shows a definite difference between it and the fastest quench oils. I would love to get something affordable and fast.

 

kc

Edited by Kevin (The Professor)

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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ive been loving my canola but i only did one harden line in it so far and as it was a kitchen knife for me i didn't polish it up to see how active it was

Brandon Sawisch bladesmith

 

eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked in to jet engines

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ACETONE

 

Cheap, not really toxic, no more flammable than the oil.

 

Acetone is able to not just thin canola, but it causes some of the dissolved waxes of higher molecular weight to precipitate out of solution. This means that it leaves the thinner oils behind.

 

Up to 30% acetone is supposed to give max benefit per amount of acetone, after 30%, the effects level off.

 

Anyone who has the proper equipment to slice and scan micrographs, this would be a neat experiment to do. Think how much attention you would get and how much it would benefit us if something as cheap as acetone + canola oil made a fast and safe quenchant.

 

I will try it, but I won't be able to do the level of refined testing needed. I am a different type of scientist, and I don't have the equip.

 

kc

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Interesting... In my experience, however, acetone is FAR more flammable than any oil. As in, hold an acetone-soaked paper towel near a flame and when the vapors get concentrated enough, POOF! As an additive in canola oil it may not be nearly as volatile, of course. Be careful, man.

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yeah, I appreciate the word of caution. I was gonna mix a small amount and see if it still gave off the vapors (I was a chemistry major for 3 years, and have flashed a few fires).

 

There is no way I am going to play with more than 1/10 acetone to canola. Even if it is volatile, after the gasses have left, I should be able to separate the lighter fraction. That may be the way to go.

 

It should (should means I don't really know) become mixed and stable due to chemical forces.

 

kc

Edited by Kevin (The Professor)

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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I know YOU know better, I just wanted to make sure that no aspiring nimrod took the idea to the seemingly logical conclusion of "Hey, I bet pure acetone would be a SUPER fast quench!" :ph34r:

 

The explosion would be fun to watch from a distance, though.

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Is is possible to get over your fear of water? Or is that non negotiable?

There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. Will Rogers

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Hi K

 

the quench K is suppose to be a tad faster than parks.. its a paraffin oil... that is basically made super pure by going through some type of catalyst

- i believe its quite close to the speed of water and made for shallow hardening steels...

in my opinion- canola is good but has its limits... i'd leave it the way it is... as its perfect for alot of steels... and if its not fast enough, i'd go to a more pro quench oil....as some of these are exactly designed for shallow steels... minimize cracking and harden effectively..

 

 

 

 

 

 

G

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Everyone - check this out:

 

P. 233 of the proceedings of the ASM Heat Treating Society said:

 

canola oil quenchants show simillar and in some cases faster cooling rates than mineral oil quenchants

 

canola oil showed (at 120f):

 

1. nearly non-existent vapor phase (good, quick cooling, minimal stess)

2. faster quench rates than mineral oil in 1300f - 1100 f range (better at "hardening")

3. slower quench from 900f - 250f (less stress during martensite formation)

 

 

canola has higher boiling point and flash points than most mineral oil based quenchants, and is preferrable in metallurgic terms to medium and some of the faster mineral oil based commercial quenchants. It does break down faster, though.

 

Now, i can't find a direct comparison go Parks 50, but canola ain't sounding so bad...

 

I am pretty sure Parks is better (it is supposed to be faster in the early phase, about the same during martensite formation), but I don't know if many of the others out there would be.

 

Houghton has been doing it longest, so they may have a better product, too (houghto-k quench is supposed to be faster in the early stages and about same or slower during martensite formation, too).

 

Canola is not bad, but the metallography shows a definite difference between it and the fastest quench oils. I would love to get something affordable and fast.

 

kc

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I know YOU know better, I just wanted to make sure that no aspiring nimrod took the idea to the seemingly logical conclusion of "Hey, I bet pure acetone would be a SUPER fast quench!" :ph34r:

 

The explosion would be fun to watch from a distance, though.

 

HEY! Those of us who are full fledged nimrods take umbrage to that "aspiring" remark... :)

 

-Todd

www.toddblades.com

 

"Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009

 

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

 

- George Orwell

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Funny, I was thinking about this very topic a week or so ago...heated canola is a great quench medium for quite a range of steels, but for certain things it would be nice if it were a just a bit faster. I'd love to be able to get more hamon activity, without having to risk total destruction by water quenching. I was thinking of adding kerosene, but I imagine acetone would thin the oil out more. Since both are pretty highly flammable, any experiments will be done with extreme caution!

 

(Tip for newbies: if you use a metal container with a lid to hold your quench oil, you can snuff out any flare-ups easily by putting the lid on and cutting off the air supply. I use an army-surplus ammo box.)

My hand-forged knives and tools at Etsy.com: http://www.etsy.com/shop/oldschooltools

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Funny, I was thinking about this very topic a week or so ago...heated canola is a great quench medium for quite a range of steels, but for certain things it would be nice if it were a just a bit faster. I'd love to be able to get more hamon activity, without having to risk total destruction by water quenching. I was thinking of adding kerosene, but I imagine acetone would thin the oil out more. Since both are pretty highly flammable, any experiments will be done with extreme caution!

 

(Tip for newbies: if you use a metal container with a lid to hold your quench oil, you can snuff out any flare-ups easily by putting the lid on and cutting off the air supply. I use an army-surplus ammo box.)

 

 

DO NOT ADD ACETONE OR KEROSENE TO ANY OIL! They will flash early in your face. I was involved with a fire that happened at a major aerospace company because some idiot didnt want to dispose of some solvent. I dont like getting calls from the local Fire Marshall at home at 4 AM because of something stupid. I dont want to see anybody hurt.

 

Now regarding canola, it is a fast oil with nice properties. I would compare it to a medium to fast oil. It has virtually no vapor phase and a very high break from nucleate boiling to convection. Agitation will make it faster. There are some additives that make it faster, but unfortunately they are proprietary. We sell the only commercial canola quench oil. I would recommend going to a lower viscosity canola if you want faster or use a fast quench oil). I can show cooling curves in a few days if anyone is interested.

 

Scott

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD

Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel)

Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering)

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I was hoping you'd see this, Scott. Thanks for posting. I would like to see a comparison of the curves for canola, straight mineral oil, and the two Houghto-Quench oils (K and G?) you recommended earlier. Well, I know you posted the curves for the houghto-quench oils elsewhere, so don't worry about that.

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I was hoping you'd see this, Scott. Thanks for posting. I would like to see a comparison of the curves for canola, straight mineral oil, and the two Houghto-Quench oils (K and G?) you recommended earlier. Well, I know you posted the curves for the houghto-quench oils elsewhere, so don't worry about that.

 

 

I can do that when I get my laptop back. I am actually going to a conference in Jacksonville FL in two weeks, where they are discussing this very topic. I am interested in seeing the papers. George Totten (a close friend of mine) is giving a historical review paper on vegetable oils for heat treating.

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD

Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel)

Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering)

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First: I have tracked down a small quantity of fast commercial quenchant, and I am going to use it.

 

Second:

I did use acetone to precipitate the waxes out of canola and then separate the thinner fraction by cooling and decanting. Precipitate the waxes, then put outside in New England where the whole thing gets very cool and easy to separate.

 

I added acetone (about 10% outside and far from any sources of ignition), and allowed to sit for about 36 hours. The oil became thinner of course from dilution, then became cloudy and began to settle. After 48 hours or so, early in morning and still outside and uncovered, I decanted the clear oil fraction and left the waxy/cloudy stuff in the bottom. Then, I added pieces of warm steel (WARM, about 200F, and then about 400F) to slowly heat and make sure there were no vapors I could smell. I heated oil to 200F and checked (it took about 40 minutes to heat it to this temp). Finally, I moved the oil back into the shop inside my quench tank with lid (steel pipe).

 

Then, I used the thinner oil in the quenching of the 1075 blade I posted yesterday, but I really only used it for the latter portion of the quench (I used water at first). I could have used any oil, it was just the oil I had.

 

I got the idea because the food science industry regularly adds acetone to canola oil to check for the amount of dissolved waxes and as a mechanism to reduce the viscosity. Also, I read the portion of the heat treating conference info about canola oil compared to commercial quenchants, which I have put in the reply below (edited to add this).

 

If someone was to immediately put acetone into canola and then quench something, they would indeed get a flash fire :excl::excl: . Probably still get a flash fire a day or two later if you aren't careful!

 

I am saving the thinned canola as a thing of interest, but I plan to use the commercial stuff since it is a known quantity. I got an email from someone who offered to sell me 5 gallons of a fast commercial quenchant just as I was finishing this process. I would never have gone to the risk and trouble if I could have located an economic source of a truly fast oil in the beginning. I do wish i had the equip necessary to test this concoction.

 

Scott - thanks for adding your expertise. When I proposed this, I never even thought that anyone would be dumb enough to immediately add hot steel to a bath with acetone in it that I did not give warnings.

 

kc

Edited by Kevin (The Professor)

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Alan,

You can get a sneak peek of some of the info you want if you follow this link (which was one of the things that got me started on this fool's errand)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=io9laaRnoswC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=proceedings+metal+quenchant+canola+oil&source=bl&ots=ypRhZsqUtz&sig=XBkGXD_sQKYG9zNaF-r6rWAe_Ok&hl=en&ei=kA3zTOSuJoGcsQOFx-maAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

publicly available preview portion from published proceedings of the 22nd Heat Treating Society Conference from 2003.

 

Start on Page 231!

 

I WANT TO EMPHASIZE -- I HAVE GOTTEN A SMALL AMOUNT OF A FAST COMMERCIAL QUENCHANT FOR A REASONABLE BUT EXPENSIVE PRICE AND I AM GOING TO USE IT IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE IT IS A SAFER AND MORE "KNOWN" COMMODITY!

 

 

 

Kevin

Edited by Kevin (The Professor)

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Interesting Gents. I've heard good stuff about Canola but it's been years since I've used it. When I started messin with W2 and clay, I searched for the fastest oil, Park's 50 is what I found. The results show in the hamon :)

 

Kelly Couples has Parks, if anyone in interested.

Don Hanson lll My Webpage

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See attached. Of all the curves on this sheet - I like the Bio-Quench 700 the best: It has virtually no vapor phase; a very fast maximum cooling rate; and a very high nucleate boiling to convection transition temperature.

Scott_Blade.pdf

Edited by kb0fhp

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD

Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel)

Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering)

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thanks a lot for this.

 

How would one obtain a small (5 gallon) quantity of bioquench?

 

Kevin

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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