any additives to speed canola oil quench

[Gavin Rondeau]

I got five gallons from a distributor in Hutchinson, KS about 3 years ago but I can't remember the contact info for the life of me. I believe it was Scott who helped me find the distributor. To my chagrin I have only used it once, to date, to harden a handle broach made of 1084, about a month ago. I've just never found a good quench tank and have been terrified of the dangers of quenching into the plastic bucket it came in. It seemed to get that broach plenty hard, though.

[kb0fhp]

Alan,

You can get a sneak peek of some of the info you want if you follow this link (which was one of the things that got me started on this fool's errand)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=io9laaRnoswC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=proceedings+metal+quenchant+canola+oil&source=bl&ots=ypRhZsqUtz&sig=XBkGXD_sQKYG9zNaF-r6rWAe_Ok&hl=en&ei=kA3zTOSuJoGcsQOFx-maAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

publicly available preview portion from published proceedings of the 22nd Heat Treating Society Conference from 2003.

 

Start on Page 231!

 

I WANT TO EMPHASIZE -- I HAVE GOTTEN A SMALL AMOUNT OF A FAST COMMERCIAL QUENCHANT FOR A REASONABLE BUT EXPENSIVE PRICE AND I AM GOING TO USE IT IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE IT IS A SAFER AND MORE "KNOWN" COMMODITY!

 

 

Kevin - Thanks for citing me. If anyone wants a copy of that paper I can email a pdf of the file.

 

Scott

 

 

Kevin

[Mike Krall]

Scott,

 

There is a lot of mentioning for McMaster-Carr 11 second quench oil on the knife forums lately. I've tried a number of times to find out who the maker of this quench oil is and have failed. I was wondering if you happened to know.

 

When a company says "11 second quench oil", if they are using industry-relative terminology, how would it rate with Houghto-quench "K", "G", and Bio-quench 700?. Yeah, I know its a lot more complicated than that but is there anything you can say that might give folks a better grasp on oil speed relativity?

 

Mike

[kb0fhp]

An 11-sec quench oil refers to the GM Quenchometer test. It is a pretty cool test - essentially it measures the time it takes to cool a nickel ball that is 0.5 inches in diameter, from 1600F to the curie point. There is a lot of variability in the test, but it has been used in the US for years it is hard moving people to a better test like a cooling curve.

 

This would compare directly to Houghto-Quench G.

 

And yes I do know

[Mike Krall]

An 11-sec quench oil refers to the GM Quenchometer test. It is a pretty cool test - essentially it measures the time it takes to cool a nickel ball that is 0.5 inches in diameter, from 1600F to the curie point. There is a lot of variability in the test, but it has been used in the US for years it is hard moving people to a better test like a cooling curve.

 

This would compare directly to Houghto-Quench G.

 

And yes I do know

 

So, if I had some McMaster-Carr "11-second quench oil", would I be far off the mark assuming it would function similarly to Houghto-quench "G"? Like pre-heat about the same... figure it to be pretty well ideal for O1, L6, and the like... reasonably expect it to fully quench up to 1/4" of 10XX steels (maybe not use a knife maker's interrupted quench on 10xx steels)?

 

Mike

Edited December 24, 2010 by Mike Krall

[Kevin Colwell]

Scott,

what luck! I did not notice the author info because I never looked closely. Since its not my field, I did not expect to know the person in any way...

 

 

I had fun reading your paper. Impressive that a non-chemist can access and sort of understand your writing about such a complex topic. You write well. I struggle with writing my stuff so people (anyone) can read it. Sorry that I did not give a full cite in the beginning.

 

I guess you were pretty serious when you said you were interested in the performance of canola oil as a quenchant!

 

thanks for all of the info. I do appreciate it, and your general good nature.

 

kc

Edited December 29, 2010 by Kevin (The Professor)

[kb0fhp]

So, if I had some McMaster-Carr "11-second quench oil", would I be far off the mark assuming it would function similarly to Houghto-quench "G"? Like pre-heat about the same... figure it to be pretty well ideal for O1, L6, and the like... reasonably expect it to fully quench up to 1/4" of 10XX steels (maybe not use a knife maker's interrupted quench on 10xx steels)?

 

Mike

 

I would say that it would behave in a very similar manner

[kb0fhp]

thanks a lot for this.

 

How would one obtain a small (5 gallon) quantity of bioquench?

 

Kevin

 

 

Just call our customer service at 610-666-4000 (ask for customer service).

[kb0fhp]

Scott,

what luck! I did not notice the author info because I never looked closely. Since its not my field, I did not expect to know the person in any way...

 

 

I had fun reading your paper. Impressive that a non-chemist can access and sort of understand your writing about such a complex topic. You write well. I struggle with writing my stuff so people (anyone) can read it. Sorry that I did not give a full cite in the beginning.

 

I guess you were pretty serious when you said you were interested in the performance of canola oil as a quenchant!

 

thanks for all of the info. I do appreciate it, and your general good nature.

 

kc

 

Thank you - I appreciate it. BTW, I am not a chemist but a simple metallurgist. I have chemist's for lunch.

[Peter T. Swarz-Burt]

alot of very interesting info in this thread... I should have checked it out sooner! As one previous post noted there seems to be a serious avoidance of water going on here, and I am not quite sure I understand why. This is especially the case when we are talking about clay-coated blades and looking for hamon activity! My advise, quench in warm water for 3 seconds and then go into the warm canola oil (or wahtever oil you want). You could probably even replace the water with a brine solution since I understand that they cool a bit more evenly (and a bit faster)... although I am not sure if this is true at the top end of the quench or not. I have done a good number of clay-coated blades in this fashion (including a wootz tanto that I wish I had never sold!) with zero problems. It has also avoided the issue of creating a forward curve in the blade which is quite often a problem when long, single-edged blades are quenched in oil, especially ones that are clay-coated. I got the technique from talking to Don Fogg about 5 years ago and I have been very happy with it since. My understanding is that the water gets you under the "nose of the curve" (TTT diagram reference) for good hardening and the oil gives you the slow cool from that point to help avoid excess stress as things actually transition. On the katanas that I have done this way I have actually pulled them out of the oil while they were still hot and done some straightening by hand (with gloves, obviously) before the martensite "set up".

 

Kevin, if you are feeling really crazy you can come down to the shop (we are over in Oakville, CT) and we can run your blades through the high-temp salt for a nice, even heat before going into the water. For those of you who are cringing right now, I want to say that we ALWAYS pre-heat our clay-coated blades to about 600F in our tempering oven before they go anywhere near the salt pot. For those who are not cringing, you should be cringing because the idea of a steam explosion in a tube of 1500F molten salt is my definition of a very bad day! Even with the pre-heat the process gives me the heebie-jeebies, but it works REALLY well. For those who do try this (and do not interpret this as me suggesting that anyone does try it), leave off the skim-coat of clay and just do the body coat and ashi. The skim of salt that comes out on the blade seems to act in much the same way that the skim-coat would, and if you add the two together it becomes very hard to get a good hardening.

 

Disclaimer regarding previous statements: My advice is don't get involved with salt pots in any way, shape or form. Not only can they be extremely dangerous if not handled properly, but they also ruin you for all other types of HTing. I haven't seen any scientific papers on this, but I expect they would show that salt pots are somewhere around crack cocaine on the addiction scale.

 

Peter

[Kevin Colwell]

Peter - Mike Blue was the one who mentioned the aversion to water as an issue.

 

I would love to come to your shop, I need to soak up all I can.

 

Funny thing, if you look at any of the attempts I have at clay coating and ht lately, I have switched to water for 3 sec and heated Parks 50 for the remainder of the quench.

 

Mike Blue and Sam Salvati each wrote/said something that convinced me to go that way.

 

It works wonderfully, too. Parks 50 by itself is very good, the idea that water gives a truly noticeable difference in hamon may just be my imagination, but it makes me "feel" like I have done everything possible to get the blade done well.

 

I am working on some full-length swords for commissions, and my options for heat treat are either a charcoal forge in ground (in snow, now), or a single burner venturi in a 13" tube (4" diameter) that I have to chase the ends to keep the whole thing going. I seriously would be interested in working out a deal,trade, small fee for use of equip, or something when I am working on commissioned swords that are over 18" in length.

 

thanks for advice. I am too scared of salt pots, and I am at my "equipment limit" unless I build a bigger garage or convince my wife that she doesn't need to park her car inside during the CT winter.

 

thanks,

 

Kevin

[Peter T. Swarz-Burt]

I'm sure we can work something out that is agreeable to everyone... and we are always happy to have folks just drop by and see what we are up to. Let me know when you think you would be needing the swords HT'd and we'll set something up. We already do HTing for Ollin Sword out in Wisconsin for much the same reason you have; inadequate space for the equipment. We find ourselves possessing the equipment but rarely running it anywhere near capacity. I think the best concept would be that you would be there to provide direction on exactly what you are looking for and I would carry out the act. Liability insurance and all that... plus I've always wanted the chance to become a metallurgical automaton!

 

Peter