jake cleland 703 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) so i was noodling around on the internet today, looking for inspiration for a wee dagger. i did a google image search for 'dagger' and one of the pieces which came up was oddly familiar - My link it's a direct rip-off of the very first knife i posted here back in 2005 - My link with the exception that the falcon heads were obviously too detailed to reproduce, though the guard mount seems to have the same carving flaws as my original. they've also shrunk the blade slightly to make the fitting up easier, but have kept the metal edges to the sheath, which i'd used to slim down the sheath profile. the handle itself is also obviously cast directly from the original. i particularly like the fact that they've tried to replicate the striations on the pommel, which were only on one side of the original, being mammoth bark. feeling strangely proud now... they won't let me copy images, which seems a bit of a cheek - any chance someone could get a screengrab? Edited January 11, 2011 by jake cleland Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to post Share on other sites
Artis Aboltins 0 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) There you go, want me to coppy here the sellers name as well? I grabbed all the images, of course - do you want me to post them here or send you personally? Edited January 11, 2011 by Artis Aboltins Link to post Share on other sites
jake cleland 703 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 thank's. i doubt that the seller has anything to do with the company producing these, or is aware that the design was 'stolen'. actually i'm kinda tempted to get one for myself... Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Mayo 2 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Well now isn't that something ! At least they had to have aquired the original somehow . Now i can afford one of your knives . Bob Link to post Share on other sites
Pat B 1 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Jake, the odd thing is Ive seen that loads of places, my friend even purchased it from a vendor in Occonomowoc WI this summer and I saw it and said to him "that looks just like something Jake would make" Gnáthamh na hoibre an t-eólas (Knowledge comes through practice) Iron is full of impurities that weaken it; through the forging fire, it becomes steel and is transformed into a razor-sharp sword. Human beings develop in the same fashion. - Morihei Ueshiba my site: http://lfcforgeworks.webs.com/ Link to post Share on other sites
Todd Gdula 3 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Jake, I definitely understand your pride at your work being good enough to be ripped off, but this is a serious issue. IMO the manufacturer (your probably right, the seller doesn't have a clue) owes you money. I would report a copyright infraction to eBay, this will cause the seller to complain to thier supplier, and that may get things rolling. You could also contact the seller and ask them who the manufacturer is. They may cooperate if you ask nicely. The biggest manufacturer of stuff like this is Master Cutlery. That may be a good place to start. Of course, you may not be nearly as jacked up about this as I am, in which case (in the words of Emily Litella)... . -Todd www.toddblades.com "Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 3,678 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I agree with Todd. It is indeed kinda cool in a backhanded complimentary way that someone is making knockoffs of your designs, but it's still illegal and is taking money from your pocket. If they've started arresting people for selling counterfeit Vuitton bags (which they finally are), I'd think a counterfeit knife would be verboten as well. Of course, good luck getting any money out of it once a lawyer is involved, especially since I'd imagine the country of origin is China (AKA copywright? We don't need no stinkin' copyright!). Link to post Share on other sites
jake cleland 703 Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 yeah, honestly i am a little pissed about this, particularly seeing how widely these are being distributed, but the blades are stamped 'made in china', and i really don't see seeking legal recourse as being viable - i'm not entirely sure what the legal standing of this would be, as there is (thankfully) no attempt to associate this pos with me, but it was still my design. i'm still kinda thinking a harshly worded letter may be in order, but i don't think there's any chance of getting any money outa them... plus i still think it's kinda cool. as a side note, i'm fine with anyone from this board taking inspiration from or even copying my designs - your interpretation will be different from mine, and i absolutely consider that fair use. the problem here is that they moulded their 'knife' directly from my work, bypassing the need to pay a designer. i remember a couple of years ago on the carving path board, there was a mass produced netsuke based off one of natasha's pieces, which she was quite distressed by, and while i totally understand that, it doesn't seem worth losing any sleep over. Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 3,678 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 That is indeed the problem. They didn't bother to credit you as the designer, so now your work looks like you might well be copying them. I know your work is worlds and away better quality, but to the average lout in the street who didn't know which came first, while yours will be obviously better materials and workmanship, it'll still look like that cheap Chinese celtic thingy they saw down at the ren-faire. THAT is how uncredited cheap knockoffs hurt your livelihood. It cheapens your reputation. It may just take a letter from a lawyer to stop it. That may run you £100-£200, but I'd sure do it. Just the legal letterhead will be enough to get eBay to take down the listing. It's flattery, but it's theft. Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 3,678 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 And it's big-time theft. A quick Google search on "celtic mysteries dagger" brought up at least seven places selling it, at prices ranging from $7.99 (Amazon) to $11.99 (Patriot Knives). The right lawyer may be able to smell cash on this and take you up on a contingency basis... Link to post Share on other sites
Todd Gdula 3 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 And it's big-time theft. A quick Google search on "celtic mysteries dagger" brought up at least seven places selling it, at prices ranging from $7.99 (Amazon) to $11.99 (Patriot Knives). The right lawyer may be able to smell cash on this and take you up on a contingency basis... And even if it's made in China, very often the parent company is in North America. If it does turn out to be Master Cutlery, they're in New Jersey and California. -Todd www.toddblades.com "Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Cooper 0 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 i dont want to add insult to injury... the thing that would infuriate me is thinking about the possible damage done to the original in the counterfeiting process. -p Link to post Share on other sites
JPH 270 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Hello; As someone who fought this exact same battle some 25 years ago..a small difference..(usually <10%) is enough to get "around" any sort of copyright infringement. It may look well enough the same but one to two more..or less little "cuts" in the carving..movement of the pin position even size is enough to keep them "in the clear"... Yeah it cheesed me off the first time it happened and I looked hard into getting it stopped but there wasn't anything that I could do due to the fact that they changed the wire diameter in the grip and the guards weren't as curved on their production pieces... Still good luck if you want to persue this..I hope you do cause maybe where you are things are different than they are here in the US... JPH If you wish to know the price of freedom..Visit a Veteran's Hospital...I am humbled by their sacrifice... Why is it when the Mighty Thor throws his hammer he is dispensing Justice and fighting Evil..BUT..when I throw my hammer I wind up in a mandatory 16 week anger management course??</p> I came into this world naked, screaming and covered in someone else's blood...I have no problem going out the same way... Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Chenault 0 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I agree with jph about 8 years ago in my car customizing days I was manufacturing some body parts and a company in Belgium started making a very similar parts and after talking with my lawyer because the parts were made from a different material and had different mounting brackets there was nothing i could do because of the 10% clause Link to post Share on other sites
Matt Bower 5 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about copyright law as some folks. However, this situation may be different from JPH's and Justin's. At least under American law, there's no copyright in the functional part of a functional item. Only the aesthetic portions of such an item are subject to copyright. I think in this case that means the blade isn't part of the copyrighted work, and the fact that the Chinese blade is different means nothing. The aesthetic, copyrighted part of the work is the hilt, and that's a direct copy of your work, Jake, with very minor differences that may not be enough. The practical questions are whether you have enough damages to make a suit worthwhile, and whether it's feasible to collect them. Those are both going to be very important considerations to any lawyer, especially if he's supposed to work on contingency. Link to post Share on other sites
richard sexstone 3 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Jake , I think you have a good attitude about it.... walk away ... there is too little time on this planet to get caught up in wasting your time and money on lawyers... If they( the ones manufaturing the rip off) were telling you that you couldn't do that design again if might be worth fighting... if there are so many our there then why not make another one and maybe sell if for may way more than the original because it is a" real" one of yours... You may have seen some of the custom Ron Lake chinese made folders... from a distance it is hard to tell unless an original is next to it.... It doesn't seem to have hurt his bussiness at all..... So I think you should take advantage of all the advertizing they are doing for you and make some real editions.... you may be surprised how well know you have become Dick Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Furrer 56 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Jake, I'd look through and see to whom you sold your piece...that would be the place to start. If theres is cast from yours I would say it is in extreme is poor form and theft. If they had made the thing look like yours that is one thing, but to cast from it...nope..theft. You will not get paid by them no matter what you do BUT what they have done is loads of free advertising for you. Make a page on your website detailing the story. Your work is good enough to steal. Ric Richard Furrer Door County Forgeworks Sturgeon Bay, WI Link to post Share on other sites
Todd Gdula 3 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Jake , I think you have a good attitude about it.... walk away ... there is too little time on this planet to get caught up in wasting your time and money on lawyers... If they( the ones manufaturing the rip off) were telling you that you couldn't do that design again if might be worth fighting... if there are so many our there then why not make another one and maybe sell if for may way more than the original because it is a" real" one of yours... You may have seen some of the custom Ron Lake chinese made folders... from a distance it is hard to tell unless an original is next to it.... It doesn't seem to have hurt his bussiness at all..... So I think you should take advantage of all the advertizing they are doing for you and make some real editions.... you may be surprised how well know you have become Dick This response is the most conducive to a low stress and healthy life. And resistance probably is futile. www.toddblades.com "Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell Link to post Share on other sites
Matt Bower 5 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Jake , I think you have a good attitude about it.... walk away ... there is too little time on this planet to get caught up in wasting your time and money on lawyers... Probably true. You will not get paid by them no matter what you do Likely true, but not certain. Under U.S. copyright law, at least, I'm pretty sure you could go after the distributor. (That's assuming there's infringement here.) The manufacturer may be in China and out of reach, but there's almost certainly someone local who's actually doing the selling, who you may be able to reach. You could also seek to have infringing items impounded and destroyed, and to get an injunction against distributing them. Dunno about UK law, but I'd bet it's similar. A nasty letter to the distributors might generate some action. Edited January 12, 2011 by Matt Bower Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Longmire 3,678 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 what they have done is loads of free advertising for you. Make a page on your website detailing the story. Your work is good enough to steal. Ric Now THAT is the way to go! If "they" (whoever "they" are) ask you to cease and desist, don't. International law being what it isn't, I doubt there's any way to force you to stop, any more than there's any way you can force them to stop. Link to post Share on other sites
kurthuhn 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Make a page on your website detailing the story. Your work is good enough to steal. That's exactly what I would do. No amount of legal wrangling is worth it (to me, anyway), so you might as well milk them in fashion that benefits you and allows you to clear our name at the same time. Kurt Huhn pipecrafter@pipecrafter.com Link to post Share on other sites
John N 326 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Way to go mate!! Thats a heck of a compliment. (albeit theft, and wrong) Be interesting to find out who the manufacturer is, and get in touch with them. I think I would ask them if they wanted any other pieces designing and try and make some $ from em! they obviuosly like your work and might jump at the chance of having a proven designer to work with Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Potter 4 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 If it is made in china, forget it the company is run by the government and they won't let you sue. BUT You can sue the importers and distributors or ask them for royalties and the like and you have a fair chance of succeeding(especially if you can prove that they took a cast of the original. Check with the MAD Dwarfs as they have had a similar problem with that country over there. Ben Potter Bladesmith It's not that I would trade my lot Or any other man's, Nor that I will be ashamed Of my work torn hands- For I have chosen the path I tread Knowing it would be steep, And I will take the joys thereof And the consequences reap. Link to post Share on other sites
blacklionknives 0 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 hella-compliment jake. in fact, for what its worth, i have been trying to make knives like yours for two years...and well, it will take at least a few more for me to come close i think a trajic compliment. great attitude though. you will be rewarded in many ways, i'm sure. He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. Chinese Proverb edwin@blacklionknives.com www.blacklionknives.com the blood of the murdered calls for vengeance, and it comes -sir william wallace- Link to post Share on other sites
jason howard 0 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) i say take advantage of the free press, tell the story, make a few "authentic" ones and let them worrie about how to stop you, if they come to stop you, sue them. then reap double rewards. fight forgery with your forge Edited January 25, 2011 by jason howard "fire can be a tool of destruction or creation, the difference lies in the hands of those who wield it". me Link to post Share on other sites
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