Jeroen Zuiderwijk Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Today was my first time actually handling real saxes! I was allowed to go through the collection of saxes from the depot at the National Museum of Antiquities. I had asked for the narrow sax from Nijmegen, and the brokenback longsax from Heusden. But the curator was kind enough to let me go through the entire collection they had available there, so I could pick and choose which I'd like to have a look at. I can safely say I've not had that much sax in a single day Narrow sax from Nijmegen: I had the overal dimensions fairly close, except the thickness! The original is significantly thicker then the reproduction I have in the works, about 7mm instead of 5mm. Plus it's very convex in cross-section, which makes it feel about twice as heavy as my version. So I guess I have to make another one later. The most important goal of today was to see how much of the engraved decoration I could recognize on this sax. Well, a lot more then I expected! The engraving is not just braided bands, it's a lot more complex than that. There are gaps where the decoration was no longer readible, but I now have the maximum I can read from the original. For the rest I'll have to do a best guess, using other examples of similar decoration. I'm planning to do a fully detailed drawing of this sax later on, using the measurements and photos. Longsax of Heusden: The thickness in the above publication is inaccurate, it's at least 6mm, with the amount of corrosion it probably was 7mm. The publication mentions an inlay of two yellow copper wires twisted together. I suspected strongly that this was wrong. And I was right, it's at least two strings of yellow copper/silver wires twisted to get a chevron pattern. There may be a single wire of silver separating the two twisted wires, but I'm not sure. This decorated sax was also there, so I thought, good opportunity to finally find out what that odd hilt is all about. Well, the curator explained: it's an assembly of various objects that don't belong together. It was bought from an antiques dealer long ago, and at some point it was "restored" glueing together belt fittings and other bits and pieces into this odd hilt! So there you go, mystery solved Other observations, a lot of the very nice looking artifacts actually can contain almost no iron, and hardly weigh anything. Some saxes which looked really well were actually more plastic then metal, so weighing them wasn't really useful. Another thing learned, there are a bunch of odd big knives (like this one) which from descriptions online or in the previous collection were described as being Viking period. They're not, they are late medieval. So a lot of mysterious not saxlike large knives can be scratched out of the oddball list. So again it pays to hear the story behind the artifacts from the curator. N.b. the photos I took are not for publication, so I keep them offline. But for those interested, I may make them available. I may need some help later on filling in the blanks in the decoration of the Nijmegen sax. Multiple people looking at it may recognize more then just me (found some crucial details the last minute looking at it, despite having been staring at it for 45 minutes). Jeroen Zuiderwijk Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/barbarianmetalworking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin reagan Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Today was my first time actually handling real saxes! I was allowed to go through the collection of saxes from the depot at the National Museum of Antiquities. I had asked for the narrow sax from Nijmegen, and the brokenback longsax from Heusden. But the curator was kind enough to let me go through the entire collection they had available there, so I could pick and choose which I'd like to have a look at. I can safely say I've not had that much sax in a single day Narrow sax from Nijmegen: I had the overal dimensions fairly close, except the thickness! The original is significantly thicker then the reproduction I have in the works, about 7mm instead of 5mm. Plus it's very convex in cross-section, which makes it feel about twice as heavy as my version. So I guess I have to make another one later. The most important goal of today was to see how much of the engraved decoration I could recognize on this sax. Well, a lot more then I expected! The engraving is not just braided bands, it's a lot more complex than that. There are gaps where the decoration was no longer readible, but I now have the maximum I can read from the original. For the rest I'll have to do a best guess, using other examples of similar decoration. I'm planning to do a fully detailed drawing of this sax later on, using the measurements and photos. Longsax of Heusden: The thickness in the above publication is inaccurate, it's at least 6mm, with the amount of corrosion it probably was 7mm. The publication mentions an inlay of two yellow copper wires twisted together. I suspected strongly that this was wrong. And I was right, it's at least two strings of yellow copper/silver wires twisted to get a chevron pattern. There may be a single wire of silver separating the two twisted wires, but I'm not sure. This decorated sax was also there, so I thought, good opportunity to finally find out what that odd hilt is all about. Well, the curator explained: it's an assembly of various objects that don't belong together. It was bought from an antiques dealer long ago, and at some point it was "restored" glueing together belt fittings and other bits and pieces into this odd hilt! So there you go, mystery solved Other observations, a lot of the very nice looking artifacts actually can contain almost no iron, and hardly weigh anything. Some saxes which looked really well were actually more plastic then metal, so weighing them wasn't really useful. Another thing learned, there are a bunch of odd big knives (like this one) which from descriptions online or in the previous collection were described as being Viking period. They're not, they are late medieval. So a lot of mysterious not saxlike large knives can be scratched out of the oddball list. So again it pays to hear the story behind the artifacts from the curator. N.b. the photos I took are not for publication, so I keep them offline. But for those interested, I may make them available. I may need some help later on filling in the blanks in the decoration of the Nijmegen sax. Multiple people looking at it may recognize more then just me (found some crucial details the last minute looking at it, despite having been staring at it for 45 minutes). Wow, excellent! This is exactly the sort of thing that i like reading about. These observations are very helpful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 very envious !! 7mm and convex is an interesting observation ... can't wait to hear more about the engraving ( that is such a cool artifact ) thanks for sharing North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEzell Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 This decorated sax was also there, so I thought, good opportunity to finally find out what that odd hilt is all about. Well, the curator explained: it's an assembly of various objects that don't belong together. It was bought from an antiques dealer long ago, and at some point it was "restored" glueing together belt fittings and other bits and pieces into this odd hilt! So there you go, mystery solved I can sleep well tonight... I've spent hours looking at that trying to figure it out. Thank you. Another thing learned, there are a bunch of odd big knives (like this one) which from descriptions online or in the previous collection were described as being Viking period. They're not, they are late medieval. So a lot of mysterious not saxlike large knives can be scratched out of the oddball list. So again it pays to hear the story behind the artifacts from the curator. Narrowing the number of full-tang saxes I know of down to one... The filework had me scratching my head, too. N.b. the photos I took are not for publication, so I keep them offline. But for those interested, I may make them available. I may need some help later on filling in the blanks in the decoration of the Nijmegen sax. Multiple people looking at it may recognize more then just me (found some crucial details the last minute looking at it, despite having been staring at it for 45 minutes). I'm not sure if I'll be able to be of any help, but I'd be very interested indeed. Again, thank you for clearing those things up. George Ezell, bladesmith" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."Buffonview some of my work RelicForge on facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter johnsson Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 It is a great feeling, is it not, to get into your hands an object you have studied for so long? To me it is often a feeling of revelation, even if I think I know the pice pretty well from publications and multiple museum visits. Getting it out from the vitrine with nothing to interfere, directly feeling the heft and seeing all dimensions. Confirming and surprising at the same time. If you could e-mail me photos I would be very interested to have a look. Scandinavian seaxes do tend not to have wire inlay, for some reason. I have not seen so many of those first hand out of their case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Sexstone Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 For most of us that will never get to handle such artifacts this is the next best thing.... Thanks Jeroen.... The seax I have started is two thin also.... But now I know... thanks again, great info!!!! Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Helmes Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 This is great Jeroen!, i'm envous, but glad your sharing your finds with us. http://www.jeffhelmes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 That's great! And you know I wouldn't mind seeing some of the pics to see if I can see something others hadn't noticed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Jeroen, I look forward to seeing how your work develops as you see more of these blades.....and your book on the subject. Ric Richard Furrer Door County Forgeworks Sturgeon Bay, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Arthur Loose Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Yes, Jeroen, thanks for sharing your experiences. I had wondered about that odd-hilted piece was all about! jloose.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Powning Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) Wow this is great Jeroen! If you want help deciphering designs I'd be happy to lend my eye too! Edited May 1, 2011 by Jake Powning Jake Powning Swords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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