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JMJones

power hammer forging help

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Below is a link to Murray Carter forging a kitchen knife on his japanese power hammer.

 

 

I have a striker 55 lb power hammer with flat dies that are about 2inches by 4inches.

 

I forge similiar style blades as Murray and would like to be able to forge them thinner and beveled as he is doing in the video.

 

What modifications, tools or techniques do you think would work to accomplish what he is doing.

 

Modified dies, hand held tools, power hammer spring swages, something else. Also how do flat dies typically hold up for use with tooling?

 

Thanks

 

John

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get a set of dies with a heavy crown put on it ...that'll move metal..

 

there seems to be a point with flat dies when the metal is thin and doesn't want to move.? crowned dies or a tool with a heavy crownn would help alot

 

looks like he's forging a spatula .. not anykind of knife i've seen ... :lol:

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John

 

are you doing general smithing or dedicated to just knives? and are you making a living at it ... If you are making a living at knives making a dedicated pair of dies would

 

be worth it... If you are non professional it will be cheaper to make some spring dies to go over your flat dies..The amount of work you will do won't damage your flat dies

 

and it makes it really easy to switch back and forth ... Spring dies are Very Loud.... use ear protection .. I used spring dies on my 50 LG for years and saw no wear or damage to

 

the dies ... and it was really quick to remove the spring dies vs. swapping dedicated dies...

 

Dick

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looks like he's forging a spatula .. not anykind of knife i've seen ... :lol:

 

Could be the beginnings of a Chinese Chef knife. They are shaped like a rectangular cleaver, but are very thin, with a razor sharp edge. I use one all the time at home, because its more efficient for Continental Asian style foods. It slices and dices, then slips under the whole pile of meat or vegetables like a spatula to transfer them to the Wok.

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Richard, do you have any pics of the spring swages that may work? I dont do this full time by any means but as Greg stated above, I get to a point that the metal just does not want to get any thinner. These knives are very thin, ending up about 2.25-2.5 millimeters at the thickest part of the spine and also have a distal taper. I would just forge them out by hand after getting done on the hammer but with material this thin one moderate hammer ding may not be able to be ground out. As far as hearing protection, this hammer is pretty loud anyway, so I always have it on. Thanks for the input so far...

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Hello J

 

not Richard but i'll try to help..

here some pic's of my sorta powerhammer hardy ( for lack of better words ) ...i copied mine off of the one in John Little's shop.. he was kind enough to let me photo it.. ...

 

DSC06522.jpg

 

DSC06524.jpg

 

its real simply to make.. bout an hours worth of work.. and works like a charm... its got a screw to tighten in and hold the tools... and a back set screw to hold the holder to the die ( make the fit to the die on the snug side.. so it won't wiggle

 

in the pic.. i've got a quicky tool... just for fullering when i draw out billet.. its an old file that i annealed and welded to some square stock... just a fast dirty fuller but you get the idea..

 

DSC06525.jpg

 

DSC06526.jpg

 

now i think a tool like a clapper die with a round crown face would do nicely... hey, that reminds me, didn't Sam have one on some kinda airhammer that he rigged up.. where is he by the way ?

 

oh there a pdf on tirehammer tools that has alot of nice stuff innit...

 

by the bye... the tools held in this saddle are abit safer... just remember to keep things on the soft side

 

Hey Richard ... by chance do you have pic's of some of your tooling .. just for us curious types ;)

 

 

thanks Greg

 

ps.. sorry bout making lite with the spatula crack.. jeez, sometimes i think i'm a funny guy, but nobody laughs at my jokes.. :wacko::unsure:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Richard, do you have any pics of the spring swages that may work? I dont do this full time by any means but as Greg stated above, I get to a point that the metal just does not want to get any thinner. These knives are very thin, ending up about 2.25-2.5 millimeters at the thickest part of the spine and also have a distal taper. I would just forge them out by hand after getting done on the hammer but with material this thin one moderate hammer ding may not be able to be ground out. As far as hearing protection, this hammer is pretty loud anyway, so I always have it on. Thanks for the input so far...

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The die holder is called a "saddle" or "saddle hardie" as it sits around the bottom die. By having the square hole you can drop in other tooling as need.

My record is four tool changes in one working heat.

 

A good video on these was done by Clifton Ralph some years ago and available here or direct from Clifton:

 

http://www.bluemoonpress.org/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=clifton&x=0&y=0

 

10-12 hours of a master blacksmith (and I do not use that term often) working in front of the power hammer and telling tales. It will save you far more than its price.

 

Ric

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+1 on what Howard said about what Ric said.

 

The only thing better is being confronted by the old guy. If you survive his test you can claim you have some potential. :rolleyes:

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ps.. sorry bout making lite with the spatula crack.. jeez, sometimes i think i'm a funny guy, but nobody laughs at my jokes.. :wacko::unsure:

He may be making a spatula for all I know. ;) I was just thinking out loud that the only blade that thin and wide that I can think of is a Chinese chef knife. The Japanese make something similar, but I don't know what they call them.

 

Mine looks just like this one, except its mono-steel.

 

 

Edited by Sean McGrath

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What modifications, tools or techniques do you think would work to accomplish what he is doing.

If this is a Chinese chef knife that he's making, I wonder if a tapered shim under the top and bottom dies would work to help get the long, flat taper across the width of the blade? All of them that I've seen have a flat ground taper all the way from the edge to the spine.

 

These blades are so thin, and have so much surface area, it seems that the finish-grinding work would easily overheat the blade, unless you were doing it on a flat, water cooled grinding stone. Maybe they get them as close as possible before HT, then just edge quench them?

Edited by Sean McGrath

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Nope , I don't have any pics... I sold my LG a few years ago and all the tooling with it... use you imagination wink.gif

 

that wize crack is half serioussmile.gif anything that will hold a curved shape in place on the hammer will work.... Mine was different than Greg's and I'm sure everyones looks

 

different as well according to the kind of hammer , dies ect.

 

 

For the upper die I had a piece with the same curve as the lowered one welded to a spring that looked like a bobby pin . A full circle bend with the two curved dies welded on the

 

ends of the two arms on the opposite end . They would be open by setting the arms of the bobby pin in an open position when they were made. In other words they were left open

 

when the spring was formed... So that when the upper die of the hammer lifts up the spring opens as well... I also made the curved dies wider than the flat dies they covered

 

and bent the edges over so that they loosely captured their matching die. That helped keep the top of the curve of the two dies meeting at the same position for each blow.

 

If the two curves of the spring die are not the same or do not come together correctly your billet will curve like a banana when you forge it.

 

The 10 hours of Clifton that Ric mentions is something you can not afford to miss if you are learning all this stuff... It will cut far more than 10 hrs. off your learning curve for a very small fee .tongue.gif

 

Dick

PS I did find a pic of the holder but not any of the tooling sorry.

 

DSC02611.jpg

 

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Nice holder, a custom fit band !

 

and i like the sorta tong holder, and how its oriented - that is definitely handy and a good jig

 

too bad you sold the LG, with all the toolin it would be a very valuable asset ( but that is life sometimes )

 

 

ah found the tire hammer tool stuff pdf

http://www.alaforge.org/Tools.html

 

they look good.. abit on the lite side but should do the trick

 

 

Saddle Hardy, nice to have the right name .. thanks B)

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I've seen the video there (didn't watch the whole thing but looks like the one I'm thinking it is). He's actually making a full tang japanese styled knife. He basically makes a very large bow tie shaped plate that tapers to both ends. Traced his pattern on it, and sheared off what didn't belong.

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John, I think that a number of guys use what Sid Sudemeier calls "California drawing dies" which are flat dies with the edges beveled over, including the ends, but stillwith a nice flat spot in the middle, perhaps as much as 50% of the die.on the short width.

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