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mill tapered steel for knives


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I came across this photo of steel supplied to an English cutlery firm. The caption said the steel came pre-tapered from a mill in France. Never having worked in a steel mill, it looks like a simple enough rolling operation (ignorance is bliss, huh?). Is there a market for this in the US? Aldo????

Jeff

mill shaped knife steel.jpg

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I came across this photo of steel supplied to an English cutlery firm. The caption said the steel came pre-tapered from a mill in France. Never having worked in a steel mill, it looks like a simple enough rolling operation (ignorance is bliss, huh?). Is there a market for this in the US? Aldo????

Jeff

 

This is done regularly for grader blades and other such weld-on bits for industry.

There is a pile of such in Finland rolled by an English firm from 100 years ago.

 

Ric

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It would require a rolling mill setup that is more complicated than presently available in the common forms for knifesmiths in the US, e.g. the MacDonald RM or clones. Forging that shape will rapidly produce a circular piece of steel using two simple flat rollers. As the steel, now tapered, exits the rolling mill for the taper, there would have to be another forging setup to straighten the piece while hot. Doing that would cause potato chip shape along the tapered edge, which would require another set of rolling dies and more to reduce the curve induced by that correction and so on.

 

A big industrial setup could do it, if there were enough buyers for the number of 20 foot bars needed to be produced for the cost of the setup. Economy of scale (not iron oxide) is the limiting factor.

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A big industrial setup could do it, if there were enough buyers for the number of 20 foot bars needed to be produced for the cost of the setup. Economy of scale (not iron oxide) is the limiting factor.

 

details details details

 

I'd make it in 400 pound batches four foot length max...you provide the starting steel in my spec sizes.

money up front.

 

 

Ric

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It would require a rolling mill setup that is more complicated than presently available in the common forms for knifesmiths in the US, e.g. the MacDonald RM or clones. Forging that shape will rapidly produce a circular piece of steel using two simple flat rollers. As the steel, now tapered, exits the rolling mill for the taper, there would have to be another forging setup to straighten the piece while hot. Doing that would cause potato chip shape along the tapered edge, which would require another set of rolling dies and more to reduce the curve induced by that correction and so on.

 

A big industrial setup could do it, if there were enough buyers for the number of 20 foot bars needed to be produced for the cost of the setup. Economy of scale (not iron oxide) is the limiting factor.

 

 

Mike,

They may have been rolled with a double bevel and slit after rolling...much like slitting a double edged sword. We can do that....

 

Jan

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Mike,

They may have been rolled with a double bevel and slit after rolling...much like slitting a double edged sword. We can do that....

 

Jan

 

Possibly, but some of those pieces look like they have a rounded spine, not enough detail to see for certain.

 

I dunno Ric, rumors by qualified visitors to your shop say that you can't swing a four foot piece without banging into some immovable piece of quipment. :lol:

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It would require a rolling mill setup that is more complicated than presently available in the common forms for knifesmiths in the US, e.g. the MacDonald RM or clones. Forging that shape will rapidly produce a circular piece of steel using two simple flat rollers. As the steel, now tapered, exits the rolling mill for the taper, there would have to be another forging setup to straighten the piece while hot. Doing that would cause potato chip shape along the tapered edge, which would require another set of rolling dies and more to reduce the curve induced by that correction and so on.

Preform man, preform....

(bend it the other way first while it is still flat)

Would be better than trying to straighten a potato chip.... B)

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Preform man, preform....

(bend it the other way first while it is still flat)

Would be better than trying to straighten a potato chip.... B)

 

I think you just about have .

But really would not the process be a lot easier if you built/ had built(or half built) a multy role uprite precoiler with slant mill backfeed combo ,not to mention the post mill back edge spine rounder?

certainly no more than a 40 tonne machine ,as i see it and at 40 tonne (and 40hp , with the steel exiting the machine at 40mph) for a 400lb batch I would recon that is about the rite ratio.........

 

 

ten pounds of wedge shaped product per one tonne of machine...

 

yup sounds aboot rite to me!!.

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I think you just about have .

But really would not the process be a lot easier if you built/ had built(or half built) a multy role uprite precoiler with slant mill backfeed combo ,not to mention the post mill back edge spine rounder?

certainly no more than a 40 tonne machine ,as i see it and at 40 tonne (and 40hp , with the steel exiting the machine at 40mph) for a 400lb batch I would recon that is about the rite ratio.........

 

 

ten pounds of wedge shaped product per one tonne of machine...

 

yup sounds aboot rite to me!!.

 

Well,

If you are working out the ratio of weight of tooling to weight of work produced then I have a LONG way to go to break even.....

 

There are machine tools which can roll tapers in two directions...the Ajax roll-forging machine is quite awesome, but specialized. I'd like to have one, but would not wish to have the "need" for one if you catch my drift. Simply feeding a machine-tool is not how I intend to spend my time.

Coufield rolling mills made a machine for rolling machete blades...about $700,000 machine..it could do tapers in length and special shaped rolls did width tapers....it can spit them out faster than a man can feed it in.

 

I like rolling mills....but what we do often requires not using them.

 

 

As to not being able to swing a four foot bar in my shop......well...you come over Mike and I'll grab an eight foot bar and we'll see who....OK ...maybe a six..yes a six foot, er... four eh?.....wait...let me go measure and then I'll........

 

Ric

Edited by Richard Furrer
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Well,

If you are working out the ratio of weight of tooling to weight of work produced then I have a LONG way to go to break even.....

 

There are machine tools which can roll tapers in two directions...the Ajax roll-forging machine is quite awesome, but specialized. I'd like to have one, but would not wish to have the "need" for one if you catch my drift. Simply feeding a machine-tool is not how I intend to spend my time.

Coufield rolling mills made a machine for rolling machete blades...about $700,000 machine..it could do tapers in length and special shaped rolls did width tapers....it can spit them out faster than a man can feed it in.

 

I like rolling mills....but what we do often requires not using them.

 

 

As to not being able to swing a four foot bar in my shop......well...you come over Mike and I'll grab an eight foot bar and we'll see who....OK ...maybe a six..yes a six foot, er... four eh?.....wait...let me go measure and then I'll........

 

Ric

 

On second though....who the heck's side are you on Patrick?....I swear if you lot show up for a tool intervention I'll be sure to find a spot to swing something much larger than a four foot bar....

 

I'll have you know I just opened up a 4x6 foot space in the shop and now I do not even need to step outside to change my mind.

 

 

Ric

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On second though....who the heck's side are you on Patrick?....I swear if you lot show up for a tool intervention I'll be sure to find a spot to swing something much larger than a four foot bar....

 

I'll have you know I just opened up a 4x6 foot space in the shop and now I do not even need to step outside to change my mind.

 

 

Ric

 

Sounds like a good spot to put the next pallet....

patrick :D

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I should admit that I'm partially responsible for a very small bit of Ric's floorspace accumulation, but he started it.... ;)

 

The general rule is that tools will multiply to fill the space available. I'd regard that 4 x 6 spot as temporarily as Patrick does. We both know you too well Ric.

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Pretty much. My whole cold shop is barely 4x6. :P Then again, the hot shop is something like 20x20, and if you trip on one of the bricks, you are probably going to be impaled. If you look closely at my profile pic, you can see my cold shop.

Edited by MJDForge
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