Kevin Colwell Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sadly, I had to sell the old family farm in Texas to help care for an autistic brother. To help deal with my sorrow (this is really a big deal, if you never grew up on land that was part of the family you may not understand the significance, it was more than just my heritage, it was part of who I am. I know that sounds dramatic and I am not prone to hysteria so you will have to trust me on this). So - to deal with sorrow - I bought a hi-torque mini-mill from little machine shop. It is the brushless motor with the belt drive. I have a lot of experience helping people who are not level and spinning as well as normal, but no experience at all with milling. Any basic advice re: mini mills in general or this machine in particular is welcomed. I will also post anything that I learn that may be useful to newbies interested in getting one of these. I don't plan to mill a lot, but am aiming at slotting guards, getting mating faces of scales and bolsters truly flat and matching angles, maybe flattening some things. I may use it for material removal in larger disk guards or blade collars (look at the on Don posted on his site where a lot of material was reportedly-removed with a Taig). thanks for any advice, and I will share pics and experience if there is interest. It has been shipped, so it should arrive soon. take care, Kevin please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Kevin, Sorry to hear about having to sell the farm. When I was growing up we were mobile, I think I counted 21 different houses before my 21st birthday, so it was always my dream to live on some land. I now share 8.5 acres with The Lady Wife and various critters, some permanent (like the horses and dogs) some transient (like the coyotes and owls), just like I dreamed. As to mills, the collet size is important, there are a lot of variants. The collet size is the limiter for tooling. A lot of mills come in R8 or 5C collets, those are nice sizes and there is a lot of tooling available. I have an early Bridgeport with a 1/2" collet, so .5 inch is the largest tool shank it will take. There is a lot less .5 shank stuff out there. A facemill with replaceable cutters is the tool for milling things flat, though a flycutter will work. For large slotting operations an end mill with replaceable cutters is nice, but for what we do, you may have to go with individual end mills to get small enough. As a note, small end mills (like in the 1/4" and smaller sizes) are fragile. You can't just try to plow a slot in a guard. I break 1/8" mills just looking at them. A light touch is the key, and tight ways on the table. Just a little bit of slop in the ways breaks tooling. BTW, I am not a machinist. I can do some simple things with my mill, but I am mostly a butcher. Hopefully someone with some real skills will way in. Oh yes, Enco is a good place to buy tooling, and you will want to buy a clamp set like this one and a milling vice. Good Luck, Geoff "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else." I said that. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - - -G. K. Chesterton So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy. Grant Sarver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Madigan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Kevin, sorry to hear about the farm in Texas. It saddens me to hear about losing family land. I have a sherline mini-mill. It's probably the same thing. I find that the mill is great for REALLY small stuff. Drills and end mills are the basic bits, and you should have the precision drilling chuck and an end mill holder with the base model kit. You can produce some pretty complex parts with these. For precision flattening and surfacing, the fly cutter is really really useful. I've milled and drilled hardened steel with carbide tipped bits, but it's not really great for milling steel. It's good at the more free machining metals, not so much the ones that require lots of pressure on the bit. The frame and controls are not heavy enough for bigger work on difficult to machine alloys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Mid sized bench mill/drill combos are great. Trust me, after you see the tooling available and all the things you can do besides slotting guards you will be glad you got one. I use the Grizzly dovetail column and it has worked great for 4 years so far. What if you want to make a hammer? Can your drill bore out a 3/4" or 1" eye hole? What about other specialty tooling you may want. Fly cutters, surfacing stones, boring bars etc. I was never even tempted to get a mini-mill but even with a mid size so often I wish it was just a bit bigger. And keep in mind all the wood working you do with them that can compliment knifemaking. Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Colwell Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) thanks guys. Brian - This mill is a little larger than the Sherline, I think. It is still small. The Sherline is a "micro" mill, this is a "mini" which means it is built on the Sieg x 2 body with a motor that has more torque than the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, or Northern Tool versions of the same machine. Also, no nylon gears to break, instead it has belt drive. It will weigh around 160lb. The next size up is around 400lb, and is too big for my shop table. I am limited to one bay of my garage for EVERYTHING. I did make sure to get the R8 taper, since that seems to have more tooling available and easier to find. I have only tried to mill something once, with a 1/8" end mill, and I broke the tool in less than a minute! My friend took over, before I could ruin any more of his stuff. I am buying a basic tooling set, mill vise, rotary table, clamping kit, parallels, etc. The mill cost just at $700, and by the time I got the tooling I am spending $1,500.00 What I did not think about was that I should have bought double of many things, since I will break them as I learn... Geoff - especially thanks for the warning about the slop breaking tooling. I also once tried to mill a guard in brass using a cross-vise and drill press. Same result - SNAP. B - is the one you have made on the x3 body or the x2 body? I am going with the dovetail column, but probably the one size smaller (but with a more powerful motor than previous options for same size). take care, kc Edited November 2, 2011 by Kevin (The Professor) please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's similar to the X3 but better quality. It weighs about 450 but the column and power head detach from the base and cross slide. The two smaller pieces are easier to handle even though my neighbor and I still had to winch it up onto the bench. I'm using it tonight to mill out a 2" trough in a chunk of oak for a hand cannon. So much you can do with them. Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan O'Connor Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Kevin, That is way sad. I don't care what anybody says. Land in Texas is different. Having to part with it is a mournful day. Regarding milling One of the first things you need to grasp is the difference between climb milling and conventional milling. Outside the US some people call it Up milling and Down milling Conventional milling or Up milling Climb or Down Milling As you can see in conventional milling the cutter rotation is pushing against the direction of travel. This keeps the table pushing against the lead screw. In a manual (Not CNC)machine this is good thing. Because- as you can see in climb milling the cutter is pulling the work in the same direction the table is traveling. If there is any slop ( there will be) it will jerk the work to the other side of the thread. Breaking tools and making terrible marks. It is called climb milling because the cutter is trying to climb its way along the material. Climb milling is easier because the cutter is helping the material move along. And if your leadscrew and nut are adjusted to almost zero backlash it is usable. But, as you can see in the illustrations-in climb milling the the cutter engages the work at its full chip load. Whereas conventional milling starts out as a zero chip load and gradually increases to the full chip load. Plus conventional milling usually results in a straighter wall It is pretty safe to assume using a manual mill that you will almost always use conventional milling-that is why it is called conventional. Dan O'Connor https://nuclayer.com https://www.facebook.com/NuClayerSystems/ https://www.instagram.com/daniel.oconnor.twinoaks/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Colwell Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) I agree about land in Texas. Different thing - its where the philosophy and culture of Populism arose, and land was something with spiritual significance. People feel connected to the land and connected to each other. Grounding in the literal and spiritual sense. It may just seem ramble to most, but its not. there is a useful set of videos that the MIT machine shop has about shop tools in general and they have two dedicated to manual milling. Yes, I will definitely be doing the conventional type, thanks for the lesson. I appreciate the time to put the thing together. There is a good bit of backlash in the screws on this type of mill, so I am pretty sure the conventional way will be the best way. kc Edited November 3, 2011 by Kevin (The Professor) please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Kevin, I have had two mills and am not trained as a machinst. The first mill I had was a combo mill/lathe and was 100% manual. I sold it and purchased a small mill that had an autofeed. I am 1000% better at precise, smooth work on the new mill. I don't know anything about being a machinst, but I believe that a trained, experienced machinist has a certain "feel" for the machine that allows him to hand crank the piece into the mill head at the right rate. Unfortunately, in my experience, if you don't have this "feel" it means you are either pushing the piece into the mill head too quickly (resulting in rough surfaces at best, or broken end mills at worst), or too slowly (resulting in chattering and vibrations that are alarming to us newbs). The autofeed on my machine allowed me to take the guesswork out of the equation. Just look up the feed/speed on the table, dial it in, hit the button and trust the machine. So, my biggest piece of advice to a non-trained machinist: Get an autofeed! For what it's worth . . . --Dave -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Madigan Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 The rotary table is extremely useful addition! I do always wish the mill was bigger. And that I had more space for it. I usually find that I want a set of parallels in different sizes and lengths. I'd get a good set of parallels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 What really chaps my butt is that these mini-mills now come in an R8 collet . Ten odd years ago I was looking for a mill and somehow missed this sort of stuff. I ended up with an old (probably '30's era) Bridgeport/Clausing Frankenmill. The Clausing head had gotten smashed in transit, but the Bridgeports of the day were the same head with a different logo. So I have a Bridgeport M-head on a Clausing body with a 1/2 inch collet. I knew so little that I thought it was an R8 until I bought some tooling and found that it didn't work (is there a raspberry emoticon?). The only problem with the (relatively) light frame is that you may find that it won't take heavy cuts with a facemill very well. OTOH, if you find that it does that job fairly well, I may be in the market for one, I can always turn the old Frankenmill into a drill press. Geoff "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else." I said that. If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - - -G. K. Chesterton So, just for the record: the fact that it does work still should not be taken as definitive proof that you are not crazy. Grant Sarver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Colwell Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 Thanks Geoff, I did get the rotary table, a mix of parallels, and specifically bought a mill with R8 taper. It arrives Monday. I have a short sword of the dao variety, a naval dirk, and a large Chinese-style knife sitting around (all damascus), and awaiting fittings and mortised handles. I am going to have some fun making fittings for these with the mill, I hope! kc please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bret Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Kevin, Im not familiar with the mill you have, but Ive been machining most of my life. The largest problem you will likely encounter is lack of rigidity. Basically its kinda like the whole power hammer head to anvil thing. You need a base that is massive enough to minimize movement. Secure your mill as soldly as possible to a table or base and secure that to the ground if possible. Even the full size bridgeports benefit greatly from being properly anchored. If your just milling slots for the most part you can get away with it. Take multiple passes. Dont try to take it all in 1 bite. If you need a slot .1875 deep take it in 5 roughly .04 passes or 10 at .02, whatever works. 10 passes seems like a lot but its better to take 10 with a nice finish than 5 with a bad one that will have to be cleaned up. Anyway have fun with it, and if you have specific questions post em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Colwell Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Thanks guys, I have the mill out and bolted to my main table. Skip the following paragraph if you don't care about how I got so much stuff... uh... stuffed into such a small area! The table is very solid of 2x4's for the upper rim, then 1x6 planking, then 1/4 plywood. It has a shelf half way down that ties the middle 2 of the 6 legs across the middle of the shortest dimension of the table, and all the legs are glued and screwed doubled 2x4's, with single 2x4's bracing each angle. There is also a 2x4 stringer going all the way around the legs right in the middle of their height, to give support for the braces and to tie the legs together in yet another way. I literally screwed and glued everything together and down. It doesn't move at all when I jump on it, and I weigh close to 250. There is stuff sticking off of each end and the sides of the table, so it has a 2x72 belt sander, a smallish craftsman vise, a benchtop drill press that is not bolted so I can slide it up and back depending upon usage, an air cleaner right behind the grinder, another air cleaner right under the grinder, about 200lb of hand tools on the shelf underneath the middle of the table, and now a 150lb milling machine. There is a shelf at either end that is not connected to the big one in the middle. One shelf is my sanding and polishing storage area with stones and papers. The other shelf is for bits of brass and iron and epoxy and drilling and milling stuff. The whole table is 4' by 8', and it has almost everything you need to have a good knife shop either on it or under it. The only things not attached are the press, forge, bandsaw, anvil, and post vise. I built a frame for the post vise and strapped it to one of the steel structural support poles running through our garage to support the upper floor of our home. Everything really fits in one bay of a two car garage. I would fill a larger space if I had it, but I have all of my wood and steel stock, all of my equipment, a couple of ugly shelves I built, all my propane, and this ugly table bristling with stuff. I would like a clean area for finishing, but it is nice to have a space that is well and truly MINE. oh yeah - it has two garage doors, two windows that the table butts up against, two regular 100watt equiv flourescent bulbs, and 6 additional 100watt equiv lights that I can move around the table and 1 lamp so I can get enough light where I need it. I basically have at least 3 lights that I can shine on any major work area at any one time plus the movable lamp. This way I have a lot of ambient light and plenty of direct for the long polishing bouts. Back to topic about the mill! I have gotten the head trammed, and I have the vise clamped in good, and I have it oriented properly in x and y to the spindle. All of this was made possible by learning how to use one of those cool little dial indicators with the magnetic base. Those are a great thing to get if you buy a mill. I haven't had a chance to check the gibs to make sure there isn't any unecessary play in the ways, but the dial indicator told me that within the sweep across the vise I have everything within 2 thousandths in both x and y. For me, for now, that is good enough. I machined some brass, and wow, did it seem to cut easily. So, now I have learned that I need some smaller cutters for slotting guards (3/16 is the smallest I have, and since a lot of my tangs taper to very small, I need small cutters. The tangs often have bevels just like the blades, so they get kinda small on each top and bottom. So far, it seems like a very good buy. Setting it up, and getting all of the extra tooling stowed took 5 hours. thanks, Kevinsdfddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd Edited November 8, 2011 by Kevin (The Professor) please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Hi K congrats on the mill, i've got a taig and would never do without a mill -mine is just for slotting, aswell here is just a break down of how i do it... and i'm sooooo not a machinist 1) dykem blue the work piece 2) do the math for the slot 3) plot it out on the bar 4)chain drill a bunch a small holes down the slot so their almost touching 5) go a drill bit size up and re-drill the holes so now they are opening up the slot ...all this is within the scribed out slot size 6) now clean up the slot by milling the sides flush with the scribed lines thats my bad habits... .. you could use the edge finder and the numbers on the dials to do it the proper way most of my tangs are not rectangles... often my knives have no ricasso... so they are sorta like triangles .. in which case there is still filing to be done .... but i still mill the front and back of the slot to the slot tolerance as a guide for filing it out oh oh... and with a small machine do not go with big endmills... the machine is not rigid enough for those... go with very small ones..... and you'll see, there will be way less chatter and you can mill through steel with some patience ! - by the way.. i like those micro 100 carbide endmills... so far they live the longest going through wrought iron.. hss endmills are not so great... maybe for aluminum or wood ...blah G North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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