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Al Massey

Pics of an old Jambiya...

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Here's some pics of a Jambiya I picked up in Turkey years ago. Trying out different angles to get what I can of the pattern on (cheap digital) camera.

Jamb 001.JPG

Jamb 002.JPG

Jamb 003.JPG

Jamb 004.JPG

Jamb 005.JPG

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Very cool! Nice pattern in the steel. I've always wondered how they formed the ridge along the blade. I guess it's ground in?

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Very cool! Nice pattern in the steel. I've always wondered how they formed the ridge along the blade. I guess it's ground in?

 

I've wondered that too. Personally I think it's hammered carefully over the edge of the anvil(i.e. the blade is on the anvil, the ridge is right up against the edge of the anvil), then cleaned up with files/abrasives. I've never tried that this, though, so I'm all ears if anyone knows how this was done!

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I've wondered that too. Personally I think it's hammered carefully over the edge of the anvil(i.e. the blade is on the anvil, the ridge is right up against the edge of the anvil), then cleaned up with files/abrasives. I've never tried that this, though, so I'm all ears if anyone knows how this was done!

I personally am guessing that a particular to and bottom tool were used after the blade was forged into a flattened diamond cross-section, to give the smith less metal to have to move. I suspect the tool even had some sort of guide to keep it lined up. The ribs are ever so very slightly offset- maybe a bare mm from each other? and they are offset the same way throughout the length of the blade, so I'm strongly suspecting top and bottom tooling.

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I personally am guessing that a particular to and bottom tool were used after the blade was forged into a flattened diamond cross-section, to give the smith less metal to have to move. I suspect the tool even had some sort of guide to keep it lined up. The ribs are ever so very slightly offset- maybe a bare mm from each other? and they are offset the same way throughout the length of the blade, so I'm strongly suspecting top and bottom tooling.

 

Yeah, good call. Makes sense, and wouldn't be all that hard to construct the tooling.

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That is a lovely blade, I love jambiyas...

I personally am guessing that a particular to and bottom tool were used after the blade was forged into a flattened diamond cross-section, to give the smith less metal to have to move. I suspect the tool even had some sort of guide to keep it lined up. The ribs are ever so very slightly offset- maybe a bare mm from each other? and they are offset the same way throughout the length of the blade, so I'm strongly suspecting top and bottom tooling.

I remember Al Pendray using a similar method for his perisan-style knives...

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Yeah, good call. Makes sense, and wouldn't be all that hard to construct the tooling.

 

A top/bottom tool made with a guide would also work very well for forging T-shaped cross-sections, also widely used in that part of the world.

Time to break out the welding rods...

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A top/bottom tool made with a guide would also work very well for forging T-shaped cross-sections, also widely used in that part of the world.

Time to break out the welding rods...

 

No such swage tooling has ever surfaced in an archeological context and no writings mention them.

 

Ric

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No such swage tooling has ever surfaced in an archeological context and no writings mention them.

 

Ric

 

What about specialized anvils or stake anvils?

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Beautiful, old, dagger Al. I'm jealous! That one looks to be Kurdish?

 

These were forged on a stake anvil with the part that becomes the ridge off the anvil and then cleaned up with abrasives. Talk about some hammer control! Greg Thomas Obach had a link to a video of one being forged on Youtube but, it has been taken down. Ulrich Hennicke had a bit about tooling to do one of these in the topic Forging the Wootzcake.

 

~Bruce~

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x2

 

very nice dag ...pattern is very good, indeed

- its too bad that video is gone off youtube, it nicely showed how the smith forged in the blade but left the mid-rib off the anvil

 

cool

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Beautiful, old, dagger Al. I'm jealous! That one looks to be Kurdish?

 

These were forged on a stake anvil with the part that becomes the ridge off the anvil and then cleaned up with abrasives. Talk about some hammer control! Greg Thomas Obach had a link to a video of one being forged on Youtube but, it has been taken down. Ulrich Hennicke had a bit about tooling to do one of these in the topic Forging the Wootzcake.

 

~Bruce~

 

Wow, it's as I guessed...yes, talk about hammer control! The tooling sure would simplify things, though...

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A rounded punch can be used to create the ridge.If you look closely at the pic you will see a hollow depression along the ridge line.

Edited by McAhron

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A rounded punch can be used to create the ridge.If you look closely at the pic you will see a hollow depression along the ridge line.

 

I am sure that rounded effect was done with a stone/file and not while hot. Much of what we see in the completed work with these pieces is not forge, but cold worked later.

For one it is remarkably fast with scraper,chisel and stones to get crisp clean shapes that are very difficult to forge.

Second..time meant little and these folk were well practiced at the cold work.

Third..much of the work would have been done by the lackey for rough cleanup and you need something for those pesky six to fourteen year olds to do or they will just wander around the village.. right?

 

much of the work here was done cold with only the rough forming forged:

http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Blog/Entries/2010/5/25_Entry_1.html

 

 

Ric

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Ric

 

 

Do you think that is says a lot if there is no archeological context and no writings mention them?

 

There is lots of " writings" and some archeological context found..but they only show and tell so little.

Ancient graftsmen were skillfull and would make me wonder that they would not have thought out making one and using it...if there is no writings or archeological context it dosent say that they were not used..

 

There is some transverse pics of blades that show steel stucture and it clearly is forged quite close to shape..after all I think this will effect pattern guite alot.

 

Also T-spine and this shape show here is forgeable at anvil whit sriker ( they had to have those), whit tools they might have had, I think similar as now days we have..upsets,swages,different hammers,subanvils.....

Now days its even faster to do whit powerhammer...Die edges.

 

I do agree that final shape is cleaned and lined whit stones, files...other cold work tools.

 

Niko

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Niko,

There is more unknown than known, but given the number of tools found from various time periods and the writings of Al-kindi,Al-Biruni and the Banu-Musa Brothers on metalwork it seems odd that a swage is not shown/described anywhere.

 

I know of one cross-section of the tip of a jambiya in Cryil S Smith's work "History of Metallography", but that is all. I have one here I can cut up and etch, but I think the difference between forged mostly to shape with a swage and forged mostly to shape with hand hammers would not show.

 

Ric

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Beautiful, old, dagger Al. I'm jealous! That one looks to be Kurdish?

 

These were forged on a stake anvil with the part that becomes the ridge off the anvil and then cleaned up with abrasives. Talk about some hammer control! Greg Thomas Obach had a link to a video of one being forged on Youtube but, it has been taken down. Ulrich Hennicke had a bit about tooling to do one of these in the topic Forging the Wootzcake.

 

~Bruce~

 

I picked it up in Istanbul, the grip style looks Kurdish to me as well. I imagine the blade is either Persian or made from Persian steel.

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Much of what we see in the completed work with these pieces is not forge, but cold worked later.

For one it is remarkably fast with scraper,chisel and stones to get crisp clean shapes that are very difficult to forge.

 

I have zero experience with > 1.0 carbon steels, but I would imagine that even if left unhardened it would be a beast to work with scrapers and abrasives, what with all those carbides. What are your experiences?

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