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2 days with little to show


Greg Thomas Obach
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what are you up to ? myself, i'm startin into the winter supply of ingots

 

it started as a 4.5lbs ingot with added Mn (since Mn does contribute to banding in normal steels i thought it maybe something to add and note the result)

 

forging is rather slow, slower than usual ! Mn is definitely making it tough to move

 

well, the basic forge plan is to square up the ingot... till its about 2 inch thick and fits between the dies of the powerhammer....then slowly tap tap away till its a big bar

 

some pic's of the forge and the tongs i use in the beginning ... the pinchy tongs hold bouncy ingots very nicely ..

 

( forge is made with castolite... like that stuff alot... think i'll add some rammable for a wear surface... slidin the ingot out is eroding the floor surface)

 

 

IMG_0509.jpg

 

IMG_0511.jpg

 

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IMG_0512.jpg

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yup, the shallow grooves help the pinchy tongs to grip... otherwise the bouncy ingot like to pop right out of the bit on normal flat tongs

 

IMG_0513.jpg

 

IMG_0516.jpg

 

not so bad, but much more to go

 

got another one thats sitting at 48" long and 1/4" thick... ... still getting bigger ^_^

 

 

G

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yup, the shallow grooves help the pinchy tongs to grip... otherwise the bouncy ingot like to pop right out of the bit on normal flat tongs

not so bad, but much more to go

got another one thats sitting at 48" long and 1/4" thick... ... still getting bigger ^_^

G

 

Greg,

Good job, nice little forge Re the tongs, are they made with a box joint..just curious...I have a couple of them around and they are my favorite tongs ( now modified, almost ruined )...I always thought they were the work of a local blacksmith but maybe they are not.

 

What am I up to..I am up to my ears in projects..tomorrow a hand rail is leaving the shop and I have a little insulation left to do on the new radiant heating system...then some knives as gifts. After the first of the year it is onto a new furnace design for making iron..and of coarse trying to get some closure to the wootz project.

 

Jan

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Hi Jan

- the forge is quite simple ! and yet i'm abit baffled by the castable i used.. its working much better than the wool... or so it seems... i have to run the burner bellow 1psi or it easily will go above my safe forge temp for wootz.... this was contrary to when it was lined with wool, i had to have 2 to3 psi for same temp and much higher start up

-just a guess, but i think the insulative property of wool is much higher but the heat storage is better in the castable

 

the exact name on the product sheet is " Lite Wate 25/80 castable " with service temp of 2500F

- but it does erode the bottom with sliding the ingot back n forth... so i'll eventually put a layer of 36 cement for a protective floor layer.

- or i could use this new stuff i got... surebond ER mix 24... its a chrome oxide phos-bonded mortar made specifically to protect linings from metal or slag penetration..

-- strong stuff but expensive !!!! and it is Hulk green :o

 

sorry, no box joint tongs, but i would love to make a pair... that would be a very sturdy tong

- those in the pic are made from a U-bolt from a tandem truck leaf pack... those U-bolts will harden when quenched so it is a medium steel of a sort

 

It sounds like your busy enough with projects... good luck with them, it alway seems like there is a crunch at this time of year

 

Greg

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Hi Dmitry

 

the powerhammer is good but it took awhile to figure out where it'll fit in with ingot forging..

- the problem that quickly became apparent (after i bought the hammer) was the distance between the dies.... sadly.. the ingot has to be reduced in size quite abit before it can actually be worked upon in the powerhammer... so i'm still slugging them out by hand for the most part... occasionally flattening the top and bottom (if it starts fish lipping )

 

but once it is in manageable size... i'll use a very crowned fuller to help it move along.. ( the fuller is basically a large half round file that i annealed and ground off the teeth ) so far its the only tool thats lived underneath the ingots without breaking

 

i'll try to get pic's of it the next day i'm in the shop

 

at the moment... the ingot is ground clean... and some small cracks were under the scale but i gouged them out and its ready for more forging...

 

Greg

 

ps... if i push steel to fast with hammer... it often leads to cracks... so its just a lite pounding and slow going

 

 

 

M-m-m-m... powerhammer.... I'm officially jelaous. :D

So far it looks great. No cracks or folding. Good luck and keep posting the pics. Very interesting!

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"the ingot has to be reduced in size quite abit before it can actually be worked upon in the powerhammer"

 

I ran into the same problem when I built my press. I have just under 1.5" of travel in its current state. I have to make a different set of dies for forging ingots or bigger bars.

The cracking sounds like red-short or sulfur embrittlement. Mn might help, but maybe the Sulfur is too high?

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Hi Dmitry

- the problem that quickly became apparent (after i bought the hammer) was the distance between the dies.... Greg

 

ps... if i push steel to fast with hammer... it often leads to cracks... so its just a lite pounding and slow going

 

Well. If I understand right you bought powerhammer instead of press. Or you aim at having both? Than i'll be VERY jelaous... :lol:

Nevertheless. The fast moving and cracks is common for any tool. I had tried the powerhammer few years ago and had cracks as soon as went full force\full stroke on the powerhammer. So slow and steady is the only way.

The hammer has a big advantage ovet the press. It does not suck the heat out of the piece. Actually you should be able to heat it along the forging(selfheating). I've heard that on very big hammers they had to forge slower in order to keep the piece from overheating. I am not sure if this is applicable to your press.

 

Sad that you still have to initially fit the ingot by hand. May be you can make or buy thiner\smaller dyes? May be not drawing dyes, just flat ones to press the edges down a bit. You'll figure it out. B)

 

So now what? More shamshir blades? I am scared even to think what you can produce with the "machine". :P

 

Give us more pictures. Please... :rolleyes:

www.artandknife.com

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Greg, I bet there's days you miss my press, Igor...

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Hi Greg :D

 

 

 

That little gas forge looks realy nice, ingot it self looks moving guite well even it

might be bit hard moving by Mn addition,it sould give bit darker matrix to perlite.. that whit Cm

it would be nice.

 

Hows the burners entery point...did you notised dark spot just under it and bit more skale?

 

Tongs that you used are realy nice....did not even think this...I have just weld handle..but as we know hi C weld

sometimes dosent wanto stick :(

 

Realy nice pics, thanks for showing B) looking frwd to this.

 

I'm up to continuing journey to Wootzy forrest...slow but has its benefits, time to look back, think things trough,get some rest... this gives room to new ideas ;)

 

 

 

BR

Niko

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Quote: >>Hi Jan

- the forge is quite simple ! and yet i'm abit baffled by the castable i used.. its working much better than the wool... or so it seems... i have to run the burner bellow 1psi or it easily will go above my safe forge temp for wootz.... this was contrary to when it was lined with wool, i had to have 2 to3 psi for same temp and much higher start up

-just a guess, but i think the insulative property of wool is much higher but the heat storage is better in the castable

 

the exact name on the product sheet is " Lite Wate 25/80 castable " with service temp of 2500F

- but it does erode the bottom with sliding the ingot back n forth... so i'll eventually put a layer of 36 cement for a protective floor layer.

- or i could use this new stuff i got... surebond ER mix 24... its a chrome oxide phos-bonded mortar made specifically to protect linings from metal or slag penetration..

-- strong stuff but expensive !!!! and it is Hulk green <<

 

I think that your forge has more ability to radiate in ultrared onto the ingot/steel now, while a mere woolcoating would absorb a lot of it first and you only have the torch of the flame for heating and very little of indirect heat (ultrared indirect heating).

I mearly wondered why you let your flare blow directly upon the material, I prefer a more tangential flow inside the forge, making sure that it is harder to burn or overheat my steel. The inner lining of my forge is castable also and I can reach 1200°C easily, blowing at 1,2 "bar" , so I can keep it way below when working with wootz

but a really nice box it is indeed *grin* I wonder about your 3 psi, which would be like 0.2 bar - are we talking about the same measuremant of gaspressure?

 

so you did forge it on four sides like in #2

why not forge it back the other way, by hitting it on the outer sides that you left in peace? That might enhance the inner structure and the banding, too

although I am not so sure, like Niko mentioned, that the Manganese will make the perlite matrix darker, when the Fe3C tends to line to the Mncarbides in the first place- doesn't it?

and pls tell us about your way of etching the piece, too

 

best whishes

Jokke

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Hi Dmitry

 

the hammer is good but as you mentioned, you just can't let it hit with full force or the wootz will be wootz and do something bad

- however it is nice to use it... i'm getting too old to slug out a whole ingot... its not that the 8lb hammer is too heavy ( you get used to it ) but its the boring nature of the task that takes days... your mind wanders and sometimes i make mistakes (not so good )

 

my press build is stalled ...till i make some bucks, then i'll have something to deal with the full sized ingot... (in a bad way, i still like to do everything by hand, and that maybe partly why i procrastinate with the press )

 

 

Greg

 

ps.. i'm predictable, if the bar is long enough for shamshir then i'll alway take that route... its sometimes very hard to get a bar long enough

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Hi Jan

 

have no pic of pattern just yet... it is straight at the moment.. not a big swirly pattern, but i'm going to add some ladders and such to get the pattern to moooooove it !

 

here is a pic when the bar was only 35 inch and 1/2 thick

IMG_0499.jpg

 

@ Jokke

- I used to swirl the gas but i to be honest i didn't notice the benefit from it... especially when the forge bore is up to temp... it seems to run fine, even though it injects gas straight down on ingot... ..but there is enough room on both side of burner to place the ingot out of the burner path... i'm alway flipping the ingot back n forth to heat it evenly on all sides

 

@ Skip

- with this ingot i start with a high temp forging (if it can handle it and it did ) but there were some indicators that it was temp sensitive.. as small cracks were starting ( noticeable only when you grind the scale off the ingot ) ... so i reduced temp now it is squared up ...but its definitely noticeable that the Mn is difficult to move.. ... also i have no clue as to how it'll pattern as Mn is not something i usually add

 

 

@ Niko

-- no dark spot from burner... i keep flipping ingot for even heat... and make sure air mix is good

- the weld a bar tech is good for safety but i alway have a problem with bar ... have to reweld it everyonce n awhile... especially the high C ingots don't like the bar as much... hard to weld, like welding to cast iron

 

 

@ Al

 

Igor would make life so much easier, funny how 30 tonnes of squeeze can persuade just about anything !!!

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Greg, get the press done while you still have tendons in yer wrist- trust me, after awhile you can "feel" through the press like it was an extension of the arm- squeeze is nice.

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