Beavertail dagger questions

[Alan Longmire]

I would like to know any details and its value , can anyone help?

 

Well, that's hard to say about details. The way the handle slabs are attached look late 19th century to me, but that's just a guess. As for value, whoever took the bench grinder to it pretty much removed the value, sorry to say.

[sleonard]

Thanks .. when you say bench grinder to it do you mean the notches at the bottom? I am suspicious of the notches as one of the V notches goes under the wooden handle with no sign of grinding on the wood, so would indicate it was modified before the handle was put on. In the grooves the ageing of the metal looks the same as in between the wood slabs. Perhaps a personal modification before the handle was installed?

 

 

 

I am in the Canadian Prairies so possibly be Plains tribe? I contacted the Royal Alberta Museum and they provided this link to one they have on display, quite interesting read.

 

 

 

http://www.royalalbertamuseum.ca/virtualExhibit/southesk/fortEdmonton_huntersDag.cfm

[Alan Longmire]

No, what I meant was that it used to have an original patina on the blade and someone ground that off with a bench grinder, which is why it's almost shiny and is why it has those deep scratches that obliterate whatever shape it had along the central rib of the blade, along with any of the original surface. Antiques 101, DO NOT clean it at all unless experts in the field agree you know what you are doing! I know you found it that way, it just needs to be repeated until people stop doing things like that.

 

The v-grooved bits along the edges of those notches by the tang were added by one of the early owners with a file, and if there is one under the handle slabs that suggests that is not the original handle. These things (as bare blades) were traded by the thousands by all three of the major fur companies operating on the Canadian plains for over 100 years. There are far more knowledgeable people than me about these, so do keep up the research by all means!

[Wild Rose]

My well considered opinion and hopefully not to tic some one off - it's a 1970's arti-fake, too many things not "quite" right, including the handle shape, too thick tang (how thick is it? - that will be a good clue...), the blade back edge with the notches (this is a bayonet style 18th Century blade, made in England and imported to North America by the thousands as a trade item to the Indians) and such notches were not included on an as sold blade via HBC , but could have been added later?), etc. Just because the patina matches in various areas really means nothing - say it was all force aged and then let set around for 20-30 years, everything would be in balance, but still not necessarily old - FWIW even the best experts get fooled by this stuff. Now admittedly that is opinion, but it is opinion based on 50 years of in depth study, so take it as you will. If you want to know for sure about the age there are tests, both destructive and non-destructive such as spectro-analysis, that can give you a "scientific" dating - unfortunately not cheap.

 

Again unfortunately tons of this stuff was done by "skinners' back in the 70's and early 80's, and now much with 20+ years of aging, is being passed off as the real McCoy. I've seen a ton of it on E-bay for example - including my own work being touted as original! For instance - one study (by a couple of well respected researchers) of bear jawbone dags being touted as originals was one out of 100 were originals i.e. 99 were arti-fakes made in the 70's and 80's.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Wild Rose

[Doug Lester]

Chuck makes a very good point. How many times has it been seen on the Antiques Road Show where someone shows up with a Confederate Officer's sword or a knife carried in the Revolution only to be told by the experts that it was made in India 10-15 years ago and had someone age the heck out of it. If one is collecting antique knives or buying one for an investment it's best to treat the object as faked until proven differently by an experianced appraiser unless it is being sold by a reputable dealer. Then it still doesn't hurt to have it independently checked. Heck yes, I would love to find a $1 knife at a swap meet that turns out to be work $1000 but I would stand a far better chance of buying a $1000 knife that's worth $1 at a swap meet without very careful guidance. Even if it comes with a very sincere story that it passed down from the seller's mother's great uncle's grandfather who personally took it off a dead Indian, stories like that rate on a provenance scale of 0-10 as a -2.

 

Doug

Edited June 1, 2012 by Doug Lester

[sleonard]

Chuck makes a very good point. How many times has it been seen on the Antiques Road Show where someone shows up with a Confederate Officer's sword or a knife carried in the Revolution only to be told by the experts that it was made in India 10-15 years ago and had someone age the heck out of it. If one is collecting antique knives or buying one for an investment it's best to treat the object as faked until proven differently by an experianced appraiser unless it is being sold by a reputable dealer. Then it still doesn't hurt to have it independently checked. Heck yes, I would love to find a $1 knife at a swap meet that turns out to be work $1000 but I would stand a far better chance of buying a $1000 knife that's worth $1 at a swap meet without very careful guidance. Even if it comes with a very sincere story that it passed down from the seller's mother's great uncle's grandfather who personally took it off a dead Indian, stories like that rate on a provenance scale of 0-10 as a -2.

 

Doug

[sleonard]

very cool, heres to hopin I havent been told it isnt authentic which is a good thing :)The thickness of the tang between the handle is 5mm thick x 16mm wide.

Edited June 2, 2012 by sleonard