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Micro word of Wootz


Niko Hynninen
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Hi all.

 

Here is microskope images, shoot from skopes monitor diffectly. Spesial thanks to my friend, using this skope was really something.

 

As is seen there is no raw IDR Cm, there is lots of different state Cm like GB Cm ( that is all ready broken to smaller

sections even its at GB, then there is spheroids..and clouds of Cm are all ready quite nice looking.

 

These shoots are from bars that I showed in topic http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=22532

so there is still lots to forge and push that GB Cm that is shown in some of pics.

 

Next is shape forging...and it could be even closer than I thought B)

 

 

Wootza.jpg

 

Wootz IIa.jpg

 

Wootz IIIa.jpg

 

These 3 are at coming bevel ( side of the bar)

Grainsize was 30-40 um +/- some?

 

 

Wootz Va.jpg

 

Spine of bar

 

 

Wootz VIa.jpg

 

Wootz VIIa.jpg

 

Both are form side of bar

 

All these bars where calculated to 1,78% C...and looks of perlite + Cm in matrix its not that far from it.

Analysis is not done.Even so it starts to be there where it should be I think...even so new melts + new ideas as fine tunning needs to test :lol:

 

BR

Niko

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I never would have guessed from looking at the first two that this is steel. Far out!

This is some really neat photography, and what an exciting opportunity to have the microscope available. Thanks for sharing, it is very interesting to see.

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all.

 

Here is microskope images, shoot from skopes monitor diffectly. Spesial thanks to my friend, using this skope was really something.

 

As is seen there is no raw IDR Cm, there is lots of different state Cm like GB Cm ( that is all ready broken to smaller

sections even its at GB, then there is spheroids..and clouds of Cm are all ready quite nice looking.

 

These shoots are from bars that I showed in topic http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=22532

so there is still lots to forge and push that GB Cm that is shown in some of pics.

 

Next is shape forging...and it could be even closer than I thought B)

 

 

Wootza.jpg

 

Wootz IIa.jpg

 

Wootz IIIa.jpg

 

These 3 are at coming bevel ( side of the bar)

Grainsize was 30-40 um +/- some?

 

 

Wootz Va.jpg

 

Spine of bar

 

 

Wootz VIa.jpg

 

Wootz VIIa.jpg

 

Both are form side of bar

 

All these bars where calculated to 1,78% C...and looks of perlite + Cm in matrix its not that far from it.

Analysis is not done.Even so it starts to be there where it should be I think...even so new melts + new ideas as fine tunning needs to test :lol:

 

BR

Niko

 

NIko,

Thanks those are nice photos..I am quite surprised to still see that much Cm in the boundaries.....do you know the amount of magnification of the photos? I can extrapolate from the grain size but tend to introduce big errors.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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  • 1 month later...

Thanks Guys.

 

I need to forge this more...Now its single edge sword blade blank whit 1690g weight.

1030 mm whit out tang and 25-40mm wide...3 to 10 mm tip to coming quard at spine...

Trying to move it bit wider...as I continue

 

Long way to heat treating stage :lol:

 

N

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Thanks Guys.

 

I need to forge this more...Now its single edge sword blade blank whit 1690g weight.

1030 mm whit out tang and 25-40mm wide...3 to 10 mm tip to coming quard at spine...

Trying to move it bit wider...as I continue

 

Long way to heat treating stage :lol:

 

N

 

Niko,

I do not know what I would do with a 1 meter long bar...right now, I am ready to heat treat a 45cm bar and am not sure how I will do it. If I go to bigger bars I will have to get some heat treating equipment long enough to handle that length. I have seen a lot of examples of people here heating Japanese style blades in charcoal forges made from 55 gallon steel drums..I may have to improvise something like that in the short run.

Guessing where you are at in thickness, looking at grams per cm in length, our bars are almost at the same thickness ..I am stopping forging because I am afraid of the decarb pushing things to, too thin a blade.

 

That steel is looking really good.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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really nice, Niko

so they have not yet given you a fiery beard? ;)

 

more pics pls.

 

best regards

Jokke

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That Cm starts to move and flow quite nice :D

 

Flow of wootz.jpg

 

Niko

 

Niko,

In the context of this topic I think this http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15937&view=findpost&p=148627 is an important link for the Wootzies to see again .

 

I have decided to cut the 45 cm into 3 coupons and get the heat treating process as close to "acceptable " as I can. Getting that done is more important at this time than having a longer bar.

 

Jan

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Jan.

 

Can you show some light to link or idea that you are refering?

 

I dont think that cutting that long bar to test pieces give real info about how longer bar / sword / blade is

reacting during HT...I would forge it ready, and HT it big enough fire.......like I think it was done at ancient times.

 

What you consider "acceptable"

 

Here is another pattern...but Puukko blade size.

 

Wootz puukko.jpg

 

Niko

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Jan.

 

Can you show some light to link or idea that you are refering?

 

I dont think that cutting that long bar to test pieces give real info about how longer bar / sword / blade is

reacting during HT...I would forge it ready, and HT it big enough fire.......like I think it was done at ancient times.

 

What you consider "acceptable"

 

Here is another pattern...but Puukko blade size.

 

Wootz puukko.jpg

 

Niko

 

 

Niko,

I will play with some other coupon material first..my ( gas forge is only 7X9 inches ) ...it is windy and dry here (no "ancient" methods until the next rain hits).

The linked photo is interesting to me as, when I grind into a well melted cake, there is little difference in what I see on the adjacent facets ..I would say the patterns are related and similar.

Looking at this knife I see patterns on adjacent facets that are related but not similar....why..what type of hammer/press was used...are the pattern lines on the surface tighter than those of the blade bevel...Am I missing this phenomenon by not grinding deeper or by not forging with different tooling?

Both Greg ( Coinage-coinage) and Klaas have pointed this out ( it has also been discussed in terms of fish tailing) and now I am at a point where I would like to use it or avoid it. Klaas noticed this while punching a hole in a disc and Greg has always advocated fullering the surface. I am still only forging the ingot as is (drawing it out) and not trying to affect the pattern by any manipulation of the surface during nor at the end of the forging process ( that should change when I am able to roughly repeat a given pattern) .

 

Acceptable is a loose term, describing a Wootz look certainly short of "ideal" ( "ideal" = an imaginary look) , which one is stuck with and must learn to love a it is the best one can do.

 

That Puukko steel would be quite acceptable around here..very nice.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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Hi Jan.

 

Thanks, this puukko is from another bar and I will forge 3 puukkos at lest form same material to repeat

method..this is 3 time I have forge out quite similar pattern shown here.

I just wanto know what happens during prosses...what makes it? So I need to drop off one or two steps of prosses..lets see? Or not?

 

I think you cant avoid any manipulation during forging the ingot. The forging is must to get ingot to bar and must to get pattern in steel. Forging makes it just better...just my opinion.

 

There is lots of opinions how the pattern is forming and I do think that every wootz maker thinks differently about it.

This path that Im in to now leads me and my work this way and I think im happy whit results. We cant say for sure is it ancient methhod at all....in other hand we cant say for fact that is not...patter shoots really close to ancient... ^_^

 

BR

Niko

 

One observation more during grinding whit 100 grid ( just after forging / no annealing no normalizing )..puukko blade was really soft during griding...I can only think that this is becourse hi spheroidisied Cm in steel..that I think is even better

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Hi Jan.

 

Thanks, this puukko is from another bar and I will forge 3 puukkos at lest form same material to repeat

method..this is 3 time I have forge out quite similar pattern shown here.

I just wanto know what happens during prosses...what makes it? So I need to drop off one or two steps of prosses..lets see? Or not?

 

I think you cant avoid any manipulation during forging the ingot. The forging is must to get ingot to bar and must to get pattern in steel. Forging makes it just better...just my opinion.

 

There is lots of opinions how the pattern is forming and I do think that every wootz maker thinks differently about it.

This path that Im in to now leads me and my work this way and I think im happy whit results. We cant say for sure is it ancient methhod at all....in other hand we cant say for fact that is not...patter shoots really close to ancient... ^_^

 

BR

Niko

 

One observation more during grinding whit 100 grid ( just after forging / no annealing no normalizing )..puukko blade was really soft during griding...I can only think that this is becourse hi spheroidisied Cm in steel..that I think is even better

 

 

Niko,

The little forge has been converted to a heat treating furnace and I should have an idea in a day or two how that works ( there are about 5 coupons plus the 45cm bar). When I get to a sword making ingot ( next week) I will improvise a furnace for long pieces. The nice thing about cutting into coupons is the ability to compare a heat treated item to the same bar as forged item.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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Hi Jan.

 

One observation more during grinding whit 100 grid ( just after forging / no annealing no normalizing )..puukko blade was really soft during griding...I can only think that this is becourse hi spheroidisied Cm in steel..that I think is even better

 

Niko,

Thanks, I will try to forge one like that..I normally forge as hot and fast as possible and it has its (+/-) consequences. Heat treating coupons in a gas forge ( even with a very reducing flame) is still creating some decarb. I ended up just turning the existing burner on my forge way down to get the temp below critical and had to stop to clean the carbon off the burner ports now and then. .Samples look ok? but I like the finer cementite look you are posting here. I have some pics but there is no pearlite left to etch black, it is all cementite and ferrite right now ( not that interesting).

 

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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These " samples " are the same puukko as above here shown.

 

What gomes to size of Cm spheroids, as you refer "but I like the finer cementite look" are as fine as I gets...well

all most..size of these are 1-4um ( this is measured from higher magnification) so I quite thought that this is quite " fine " material shows superplastisity too, that is common to fine grain size phenomen.

 

Im not quite sure how small your Cm sferoids are but Im more than pleased, really.

 

I sure dont think that anybody can make steel that has 1,5 % C and matrix of ferrite and all C as Cm.

As steel cools different types of pearlite will form.

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These " samples " are the same puukko as above here shown.

 

What gomes to size of Cm spheroids, as you refer "but I like the finer cementite look" are as fine as I gets...well

all most..size of these are 1-4um ( this is measured from higher magnification) so I quite thought that this is quite " fine " material shows superplastisity too, that is common to fine grain size phenomen.

 

Im not quite sure how small your Cm sferoids are but Im more than pleased, really.

 

I sure dont think that anybody can make steel that has 1,5 % C and matrix of ferrite and all C as Cm.

As steel cools different types of pearlite will form.

 

Niko,

You should be pleased, getting that small a particle in the proper location without agglomeration is phenomenal........I doubt I can get the spheroids that small, but I know from past ingots I can get a lot smaller than what I am getting. I have some limitations at this point into the project...I am attempting to create an equivalent to real wootz (Museum Quality Wootz) , as it was made in the good old days ( starting from the iron made, crucible, process etc. ) ..anything I do, has to correlate to how it was or may have been done using charcoal and very basic tools. As time goes by I am getting really close.

Jan

 

Niko,

The broken cementite fragments remaining in an as forged bar(# 3) measure 50 micrometers approximately, it would be tricky to get a fine spheroidal structure on this bar as it is difficult (risky) to make the cementite completely dissolve into austenite at high carbon levels. Some of the spheroidized cementite in a bar forged the same way is as large as 60 micrometers.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein
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