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Specialty induction coil for heat treating.


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This coil is similar to one that Grant Sarver (RIP) showed me except I reversed so I could hold the tang and not the blade. It keeps the heat on the edge or whatever level you choose.

 

With induction you do not need a magnet to test for CT. When you no longer feel the steel vibrating then you know it has lost it's magnetism.

 

This coil also allows almost instantaneous quenching since the oil can be kept right next to the coil.

 

And FWIW that is also how I heat my oil. The EMF will heat the metal pan even a ways away form the coil. A while back I left a wrench sitting about 6" from the coil after doing some forging. I went to pick it up and burnt the living *&&^%% out of my fingers. I then realized I can heat the quench oil the same way. Out of injury comes discovery.:wacko:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PF2d9HwDm1M

 

 

1:36 to go from 40 deg steel to quench.

Edited by B Finnigan

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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I love induction heating, it's just the neatest thing. Clever way to heat the oil, too. I wish I had one of these...

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

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Brian,

 

I did not know that Grant had passed away! What a loss to the community! He was a wealth of knowledge.

 

I bought one of his induction forges about a year ago. I have to admit I haven't used it much because I can't seem to learn how to make custom coils. Every time I try to bend one up, the copper line kinks. Any tips?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

-----------------------------------------------

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelt

http://stephensforge.com

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Grant did leave a huge hole in the black smithing and metal working community and will be eternally missed. He had a severe abdominal aortic aneurysm which can be very lethal.

 

To bend the coils I anneal the copper, measure out a bit more length then I will use, crimp one end closed and then fill with fine sand, and then pack it tightly by tapping it vertically. Then crimp the other end closed and start gently bending it to the desired shape using a mandrel. The tight sand provides internal counter pressure/support so the copper stretches instead of collapsing. Then you cut off the crimped ends, empty out the sand and start flaring for the compression fittings. I blow into one end real hard to make sure all the sand is out.

 

I used a 2x4 to make my hatchet/hawk coil.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-nsheM0F6F0

 

My 59 second copper guard blank from scrap.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=C1S8GTyE-rM

 

 

Hopefully these videos will give everyone a good look into induction and how versatile it is. A lot of the people that have induction forges don't post much about them on the forums.

Edited by B Finnigan

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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Hi Brent

 

very nice.. like the coil alot

 

I've been readin abit... that vib is called "Hysteresis loss " and occurs up to curie pt

 

 

 

i found this site help me alot... but then again i'd bet a 100 bucks you already know all this down pat

http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html

 

 

 

Grant had some tutorials on how to do coils.. thought he had one on either northwest blacksmith assoc site or on iforge iron ( i'll look around )

http://www.ocpinductionforge.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-make-a-pancake-coil.4/

 

thought he said to us a certain size coil or if its too large it bends easily ?? think its 3/16 he uses ?

 

brilliant machines !!

 

G

Edited by Greg Thomas Obach
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SAND! Brilliant! I would have never thought of that on my own.

 

Thanks!

 

The other thing I don't care for is how you cannot touch the metal to the copper coils without sparks. Sam Salvati told me you could line the inside of the coils with ceramic sleeves to prevent this. Ever tried that?

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

-----------------------------------------------

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelt

http://stephensforge.com

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SAND! Brilliant! I would have never thought of that on my own.

 

Thanks!

 

The other thing I don't care for is how you cannot touch the metal to the copper coils without sparks. Sam Salvati told me you could line the inside of the coils with ceramic sleeves to prevent this. Ever tried that?

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

I suppose water would also work since it doesn't compress but you would have to have mega tight crimps or have leak issues. And you only have to get the coil to about 80% of it's shape and then you can free bend it since the initial bending actually will work harden it a bit.

 

And a few of my coils are not the prettiest things but all that matters is that coolant can circulate through them.

 

I m sure you could use something like ITC or kiln wash to insulate it. It's not a big deal for me since with a little practice and using an adequate sized coil it doesn't happen that often. And it's no problem for me to flip the unit off and back one real quick. And it will only spark if you touch a second coil. Just touching one won't do it. And I don't think ceramic would stay on unless you had the coils completely encapsulated in it like a cylinder/tunnel. Otherwise just the flex of connecting and disconnecting them would break it. And ceramics/clays don't like being wrapped around a mandrel. It almost always cracks as it dries.

 

 

Now this is just playing but I will have to do it.:wacko: Watch it to the end and see what happens. Magic might be cool but physics is far cooler.

 

 

I also have a little chunk of stainless steel I keep by the ind. forge to heat my coffee up. I just drop it in and hold the cup next to the coil. Faster then a microwave and probably even faster if it was a metal cup.

 

 

Propane is so "last century".

Edited by B Finnigan

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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For those interested Larry Langdon of www.monstermetal.org has taken over importing Grant's induction forges. His contact info is on his website.

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For those interested Larry Langdon of www.monstermetal.org has taken over importing Grant's induction forges. His contact info is on his website.

 

Larry is a good man.

 

I suggest you cover those coils with some ceramic mesh or a bit of inswool or similar...that spark near the end with the quench is an indication of bad things that are possible.

 

Ric

Richard Furrer

Door County Forgeworks

Sturgeon Bay, WI

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I have sparked it at least 100 plus times with no problems. It just faults out and you reset it. It's so easy to do that I'm sure a safeguard was built in for that. The instructions have no cautions or warnings about. It looks bad but I spark it several times with each use. Even heat scale falling off will spark and usually fault it.

 

One of the best features is it's completely idiot proof. I even accidentally touched my grinder with one hand while the coil was charged without gloves. I got a slight tingle and then it stopped. My grinder is chassis grounded straight to my 103' well casing. The circuitry immediately sensed what happened and cut out. If it didn't I would have been in big trouble. The induced power in the steel would have shot straight to ground with me being the fuse.

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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I have sparked it at least 100 plus times with no problems. It just faults out and you reset it. It's so easy to do that I'm sure a safeguard was built in for that. The instructions have no cautions or warnings about. It looks bad but I spark it several times with each use. Even heat scale falling off will spark and usually fault it.

 

One of the best features is it's completely idiot proof. I even accidentally touched my grinder with one hand while the coil was charged without gloves. I got a slight tingle and then it stopped. My grinder is chassis grounded straight to my 103' well casing. The circuitry immediately sensed what happened and cut out. If it didn't I would have been in big trouble. The induced power in the steel would have shot straight to ground with me being the fuse.

 

Yes and INSIDE the Tesla cage is safe as well....to a point.

I see GFCI on bathroom wall outlets, but that does not mean I get to shower with my toaster....it means enough folk have been damaged/killed and they put in place a device to make it a bit less dangerous....the operative word is "less"...not "not".

 

What you have said is that this device from China is built with your best interest in mind and has no caution in the manual for an event you know to be dangerous.

 

That seems to be quite a large amount of faith you have in its sensors and interrupters....then again I shut of the drill press before I clear chips, reach under the press and power hammer with sticks not my hands and try hard not to fly kites in the rain or near power lines.

 

You know it is dangerous and you are making videos for the general public to see....that carries with it a certain responsibility I think.

 

Ric

Richard Furrer

Door County Forgeworks

Sturgeon Bay, WI

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Actually I posted this thread to show a specialty coil for heat treating blades, not a safety lecture from someone who doesn't even own one. I don't know a single induction forge owner that has any insulation on the coils. That included Grant and Tom Ferry who have used these for many, many years. It just would be more of a hassle then any protection it would offer.

 

Give me the benefit of the doubt that I have safely used it for almost two years without any injury. I can't say that about any of my propane forges. I have plenty of burn scars to attest to that.

 

Everyone here is responsible for their own safety using any given piece of equipment they choose to own and operate.

 

Go on YouTube and you will not see a single video with an induction forge coil with any insulation. And that includes several industrial settings with coils far stronger then mine.

 

I find it rather rude and patronizing that you use my thread to lecture me about a piece of equipment you know little to nothing about. If you have concerns about induction forging safety then I would invite you to start your own thread and not try to completely derail my thread.

Edited by B Finnigan

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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Actually I posted this thread to show a specialty coil for heat treating blades, not a safety lecture from someone who doesn't even own one. I don't know a single induction forge owner that has any insulation on the coils. That included Grant and Tom Ferry who have used these for many, many years. It just would be more of a hassle then any protection it would offer.

 

Give me the benefit of the doubt that I have safely used it for almost two years without any injury. I can't say that about any of my propane forges. I have plenty of burn scars to attest to that.

 

Everyone here is responsible for their own safety using any given piece of equipment they choose to own and operate.

 

Go on YouTube and you will not see a single video with an induction forge coil with any insulation. And that includes several industrial settings with coils far stronger then mine.

 

I find it rather rude and patronizing that you use my thread to lecture me about a piece of equipment you know little to nothing about. If you have concerns about induction forging safety then I would invite you to start your own thread and not try to completely derail my thread.

 

B..I was not calling you out..I like your posts and I would like you keep posting...for a LONG time.

 

I own a 50Kw 480 volt unit...Ajax Pachydyne is the model. Works on 3,000 to 10,000 hz rate and weighs about 1,600 pounds plus the cooling tower....and its a pleasant green color. I treat it like a snake in the corner of the shop.

Generally speaking I do not share my shop tooling and product line with the general public, but since this has become a "I have one and know more" situation then I believe it is appropriate for me to do so in this case. So I have one, its bigger than yours and I have been using this technology for better than ten years.

I have seen some very close calls with injury surrounding these tools (over the past ten years of being around them)....in university settings ..mostly with poor practice from students playing rather than doing what the Prof has shown...and in small shops were accidents happen for similar reasons. The issue seems to be what one can get by with (out of ignorance and luck) vs proper understanding and assumed safe working practices.

I was planning on importing these units, but then I saw Grant doing that so I backed off....I was to do it again, but Larry stepped in...so....I know when to let others have a go and when to step aside and wait.

 

If you are interested in coil design then I suggest this site....it has some good information about solving issues as well as some math to work out coils....of course to take real benefit of the induction technology one may need more than 15kw...though it is a good start.

http://www.ameritherm.com/induction-applications.php

They used to have all the information posted online, but some chinese companies coped the pages and listed the same solutions so apparently they have made it a newsletter you need to sign up for.

Note the red coating on many of the coils..it is a cover for abrasion and to avoid the spark....note also that some use a water spray to cool the part as it heats.

 

Here is another:

 

http://www.inductotherm-hwt.co.uk/content/4/1/1/product/induction-welding-coils/

 

The I have not seen it so it is not needed defense does not hold water really. We have only seen a small portion of what is out there.

AND

Feel free to call me out on anything..I am not flawless, but I do have a rather full kit of tools here in the shop and try very hard to learn what makes them tick before I write about them. I very much enjoy your enthusiasm and that you are putting yourself out there.

 

Ric

Richard Furrer

Door County Forgeworks

Sturgeon Bay, WI

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I didn't didn't start this thread in the "design and critique" sub-forum. It was started to give the technology more exposure to the knife making community. Very few people using them post much about it here. Grant talked about them a lot on the black smithing forums not as much here.

 

It's my call how I use my machine and I don't post here to get safety lectures. You have an older unit that may not have the built in safety features the new ones obviously have. Grant told me and many others that these particular units are very safe to use. If there was any danger whatsoever he would have made it crystal clear before even turning over the unit to any of us.

 

This forum has far too many "safety" experts that feel that if it wasn't for their vast intrinsic wealth of knowledge we would all be dead. I'll take my lumps even if means buying a new machine. Even if it means going to the ER with burns, It's my shop and my equipment.

 

You have an induction unit yet I don't recall ever seeing any recent or threads at all from you about it's benefits and applications to bladesmithing and heat treating.

 

I did take the initiative to show some of the uses along with video. Only to be derided on some hypothetical safety aspect. I get at least 1-2 PM's every month from people asking me questions about it. Silly me for trying to put up some info for everyone to check out.

 

I would love to see the older larger units functioning on a thread here. Share you knowledge and how you use it for blade forging and heat treating. Even if you dipped the entire unit in safety red ceramic it won't matter to me.

 

Being lectured doesn't exactly make a guy want to keep posting threads if it's just going make problems. It would be far easier for me to just take the attitude of "go figure it out yourself and don't bug me about it". It's very mysterious and sometimes intimidating to people that first see them in action. My shop is open to anyone that wants to come over and use the unit. When I post a video or pic of it it's my way of having a digital open house.

 

A little respect and etiquette goes a long way to making a forum a healthy, beneficial and informative environment. I don't have a "I have one and know more" issue. I have a "stop critiquing what I do or don't do just because it doesn't fall into your own philosophy".

 

I make a very concerted effort to not start controversial threads that will initiate debate. It's waste of everyone's time and serves no benefit at all. But it only takes one person to derail a thread off it's topic. I had an earlier thread about small scale smelting with a coil and crucible set up I made. Right out of the chute some wise ass had to start criticizing the small sized buttons I got. He just had to interject his unsolicited input and highjack the whole intent of the thread. I told him where to go and then deleted the whole thread. It was a long time before I posted anything else related to induction.

 

I don't need the grief when all I'm doing is trying to contribute new info on something. And doing it on my own thread.

 

Nuff said.

Edited by B Finnigan

Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement.

 

 

I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message.

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