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Al Massey

fuller depths based on contact wheel size...

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I was bored the other night so I worked out a table of sorts for some common contact wheel sizes as this seems to be a common way to make or at least finish wide fullers. I tried to fudge in the thickness of the grinding belts into the system.

Hope folks find this useful.

Wheel Diameter: 1", 1.5", 2", 6"

groove depth by desired widths:

fuller width 1/2": 3/32"(.09375") 1/32"(.03125") n/a n/a

 

fuller width 3/4": 5/32"(.15625") 3/32"(.09375") 5/64"(.078125") n/a

 

fuller width 1": 5/16"(.3125") 3/16"(.1875") 1/8"(.125") n/a

 

fuller width 1.25": n/a n/a 7/32"(.21875") 1/16"(.0625")

 

fuller width 1.5": n/a n/a n/a 3/32"(.09375")

 

As I said, I've tried to fudge in belt thickness, nothing worse than cutting through on a groove. Plus, remember that the depths are for each side the fuller is cut in on!

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Wouldn't this vary depending on the thickness of the blade into which you are cutting the fuller?

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Wouldn't this vary depending on the thickness of the blade into which you are cutting the fuller?

Not at all. Assuming you are using the same contact wheel size, it will have to go just as far into the steel to make a groove of that width. Now, if your blade is thinner that that, wellll-it's called see-through. Basically, it doesn't matter if your blade is 3/16" or 3/8" thick, as far as the wheel is concerned. It has to cut x amount into the metal to have a fuller width y. Now, I believe the way they did such nicely tapering fullers in many swords in the 18th and 19th centuries was that the fuller was cut in first, after very rough forging, then the blade was ground and thinned towards the tip giving a distal taper, this would naturally taper the fuller's width towards the point making the groove shallower and more narrow.

Edited by Al Massey

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I agree, Al, I think that's how it was done on those tapered fullers. It's how I've done it, anyway. ^_^

 

Thanks for the calculations, I had been wondering about that a while back. It's time to get a larger wheel. I have a 2" serrated wheel, but I need wider fullers and while I can do it on the diagonal with the 2" wheel, it's kind of scary. :ph34r: Plus the terminations are a pain that way.

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I agree, Al, I think that's how it was done on those tapered fullers. It's how I've done it, anyway. ^_^

 

Thanks for the calculations, I had been wondering about that a while back. It's time to get a larger wheel. I have a 2" serrated wheel, but I need wider fullers and while I can do it on the diagonal with the 2" wheel, it's kind of scary. :ph34r: Plus the terminations are a pain that way.

Yeah, beyond the 3/4" mark on a 2" wheel you better have lots of thickness to play with. 1/4" thick stock is pretty much necessary even to have a decent web at the 3/4 mark. After that I'd go to a 6" wheel if you have one.

Either that or say "Well, this is a variant on the Hocho Masamune idea..."

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I came here from another thread and I gotta ask: Why the jump from 2" to 6"? I am assuming it is because those are the wheels that are owned and are common, but there may be something else involved too. Seems like at least adding a 4" wheel would seem logical.

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It is also worth mentioning that a lot of fullers on historic swords are not part of the radius of a circle....or at least they do not feel like that under your fingers.

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True. It is very much worth remembering they were not using 2x72 belt grinders.

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Of course Alan, it is Europe so they were metric. :o

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Also seems to me that the finishing marks on the fullers tend to run parallel to the length of the fuller and not across, at least on the ones that I have seen or can discern in photographs of old blades. I'm certain that's not universally true, but then, nothing ever is. I'm thinking of getting a thin 6" inch diameter wheel and mounting it horizontally with a stop to clean out narrow fullers. The edge can be preshaped and is not likely to give a section of an arc for the fuller.

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I had to take a shot at finding the equation.

To get the depth (h) of a fuller, we know the diameter of the wheel (d) and want a fuller width of c (for cord length)

 

h = (sqrt(c^2+4d^2)/2) - d

 

From the swords I've seen with fullers, none of which have been very straight or particularly crisp, they all appear to be ground in using a shaped stone or a wheel dressed with the desired shape. I've seen shaped leather wheels used to polish fullers.

Edited by Brian Madigan

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is there a way to make a fullering tool for use on hot steel to eith cut or forge the fuller in?

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Try searching before asking. Google: site:bladesmithsforum.com fullering tool.

Read the first several results. Then you can refine from there, such as "spring fullering tool", or "hot sen".

 

Edit to add:

After coming back to this from being linked in another thread I realize that this seems a bit snarky. My main intent was to encourage using Google to search because the forum search engine isn't very good. My apologies for coming across a little gruff a year ago.

Edited by Jerrod Miller

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Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I think there is some good info in here and I also did a little experimenting today concerning the same topic.

This way only works when grinding the fuller in the blade while it is still rectangular and of the same thickness throughout. The width of the final fuller will of course change depending on how you grind in the distal taper and the bevels but it's a starting point.

Using a stop on the table, it is possible to set the depth of how far the belt will grind into the steel (or wood, as in my experiment).

 

With a 50mm wheel, the resulting numbers are like this:

 

depth: width:
0.5mm 1,2cm
1mm 1,6cm
1.5mm 1,8cm
2mm 2cm
2.5mm 2,3cm

 

Since I measured by hand with a ruler and a caliper, these numbers are more ballpark estimates but they are close enough to work with. In the end, it doesn't matter if the fuller is 1.5 or 1.7mm deep / 1.8 or 2cm wide, as long as it's even and the same on both sides.

I will do the same for my 40mm wheel once it gets here and maybe also for the big 150mm wheel.

 

P1011452.jpg

 

P1011454.jpg

Edited by Lukas MG

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I believe the formula posted above by Brian may be incorrect. The attached photo shows what I believe to be the correct formula for fuller depth, h. 
65595A26-14D0-4492-9A71-C695C261CF1A.jpeg

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