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Niko Hynninen

Reflection to the ancient steel.

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7 minutes ago, Suzdalskiy S said:

Not only the pattern on the plane of the blade determines which "steel grade", not one crucible technology .... Everything should be considered in the complex. I think that the main core for determining the original ancient steel is its composition and internal structure.

I know what you are saying, but the problem is that the composition was so varied and there is no common composition... none.   The internal structure of the blades also is different between cluster sheet patterns, purely dendritic patterns and grain boundary patterns, so there is no common internal structure, only commonality in specific groups.  Even the ingots that came from Decanni were forged out in many different ways and many different patterns were obtained from them.  So there is no classification that we can use to say that something is or is not a correct reproduction of crucible steel in a general sense.  We have to be specific as to what we are trying to reproduce and frankly the precise composition is not as important as you may think.

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Yes - if you want to get any crucible steel. :) If you want to get what is called a bulat, pulad, it can more specifically say than "wootz Damascus steel - Verhoeven"? Or is it different steel for the period of time and the region? First we need to specify the terms .. to talk about one type of crucible steel

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There is some confusion about this.  The truth is that Pulad means steel in the Persian language, Bulat comes from the same word meaning steel, Wootz comes from Ukku which was a local word meaning steel in one dialect in India.  It simply meant steel, nothing more nothing less.  Sometimes it was called "Indian Steel" if it came from India.  But the way the ancients designated between the different types of steel was to refer to it by either the maker, the region of forging or mostly by the pattern.  It was always classified by the pattern and that was broken down into the background colour and the nature of the watering or specific pattern. The pattern that Verhoeven talked about and was seeking to get was the Black Wootz or the black pattern from the Khorassan province in Persia.  It was a highly sought after pattern and that is why whey were trying to reproduce it. It was all called Pulad / Bulat / Wootz and much of it was made from ingots which came from Mysore or Decanni in India during the 16th century onwards.  However regardless of where the ingots were made, the final blade always bore the name of the location where it was forged or the nature of the pattern.  Hence it is acceptible for us to call a piece of crucible steel Wootz or Pulad etc. regardless of the pattern but it is good if we can also categorize the pattern. :)

 

Edited by Tim Mitchell
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Yes. But the total is at least the period of time and the use of crucible technology. Yes, I agree, but the idea of generalizing and specifying the region can also be India and Persia production zone. The period is also around 10-18 centuries ...?

 

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During this period, people could produce crimped iron, crucible steel, cast iron. Chosen for the production of weapons crucible technology - the production of higher quality steel. That's determined - the name (let it be common Pulad without a difference as it is treated, just like steel), crucible technology, region, time, direction for steel quality ...?

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You can't generalise with even production zones of Persia and India as there were many different patterns which came from these regions.  The only thing that we can do is to accept that it all is Pulad / Wootz and then just categorize according to specific patterns and perhaps the century.  This is the way that the old writers described crucible steel in the old days and I think we need to keep with their method instead of saying that this or that isn't wootz or pulad...

 

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On 12/7/2017 at 12:15 PM, Marius Mioc said:

Hello Niko,

Interesting how you manage to get such a perfect watering pattern, that would make envious even Assad Allah, ON RAW, UNPOLISHED BARS?! All the wootz pattern I know comes after fine polishing and etching and no way directly after hammering and filing a bar.

Moreover, it is interesting how you present these astonishing patterns, yet you did NOT FORGE A SINGLE NEW BLADE  WITH THEM?!

So I believe that you are merely posting some photos of old wootz to which you applied some hammer and file strikes and claim that you produced it.

 

Did you join this forum just to post your accusations against Niko? I see you just joined and the first thing you post is these rude comments!

We are a different kind of forum here from what it looks like to me is you came straight from one of those fourwheeler forums or mechanic forums that people belittle other people because it makes them feel smarter or better than others. Hopefully this is all we have to listen to!:angry:

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3 hours ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

Did you join this forum just to post your accusations against Niko? I see you just joined and the first thing you post is these rude comments!

We are a different kind of forum here from what it looks like to me is you came straight from one of those fourwheeler forums or mechanic forums that people belittle other people because it makes them feel smarter or better than others. Hopefully this is all we have to listen to!:angry:

I totally agree, but probably shouldn't take away from Niko's research and hard work by cluttering it with comments about Mario's (whatever his name was) arrogance. I think Emiliano pretty well said what needed saying.

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56 minutes ago, Zeb Camper said:

I totally agree, but probably shouldn't take away from Niko's research and hard work by cluttering it with comments about Mario's (whatever his name was) arrogance. I think Emiliano pretty well said what needed saying.

You are right but it would be enlightening to carry on a discussion of definitions and history in a new thread. I don't begin to claim to be up to speed on the metalurgy but I have had some experience with historical research and the idea of what we know, what we think we know, what we assume and presume.

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I second that. It would be good to move the discussion of history etc to another thread. The discussion has started to move off topic for this thread. 

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OK, being a unanamous decision between us two I will risk being the fool to start it with a wind-filled first post that besides boring everyone will probably kill the thread "aborning" as they used to say.

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  Well Hello!

Friend of mine said to me that there is “interesting talk” about me at one forum….I said I don’t care…but looked it up anyways. Interesting and sad to see how one person manage totally get his shit to spiral and crash. I could not care less about one or other saying “you can´t do that, it´s in possible to get this and that done, why don’t you do this and that”….Over years I have heard them all…But have done all that and more, plus shown that all is possible …Some have said even more…so you better get in line!

 I usually don’t care rat´s ass about harassment…but reading between lines one obviously “knows” what he is talking about or just needs some “mentoring” about crucible steel. This text of one clearly sounds like lack of information about crucible steel and as one has not got anything done related to “ancient steels” shouts out that I´m full of shit! Well…Dude…Why would you just ask about crucible steel melting set up…how it´s done and do it!... Show how it´s done…do you honestly think that I have done all that you say…Me getting some money spend those blades and show them as my own work? Have you ever heard term “occupational pride” "honour"? Do you know what it means?

   I sure don’t have to testify you nothing…Even its all there…just read it! I sure don’t have to make new or old blade…finish them just that you are question why I`m not making them ready… You need to understand some things about steel first than start flapping your suspenders. Whit out good patter there is no point making any blade…if you want to make best or at least similar blades as ancient times they need to have similar pattern. To fully understand what, how and why this pattern is created one need´s to make lots of testing. When you are in point that you can make multiple ingots and forge them to bars or semi raw blades and they all behave same way under your hammer and produce similar and wanted patter….only then you can say I got it.  It´s crystal clear that you have not done anything like this in your life and whit that attitude you never will. ….You just don´t get it! This journey is also about SISU… Word that you need look up first…

My tech and my method of making crucible steel might be different than what its bean said over the internet about it. My chemistry is 99,8 % same as some of analysis made from “real” ones…also pattern of steels structure under microscope is 100% same as ancient ones. I don’t do those “tricks” that some folks are doing. As now there is 5 different methods how I can forge ingot to bar. I don’t get nice watering pattern every time I melt ingot as there is all ways that x factor in this…small things makes difference. Good crucible steel whit watering pattern is allways really small spheroids one perlite matrix…that makes nice pattern…clusters, GB Cm and elongated texture gives totally different look and pattern.

But let´s play it like you want… If you can produce public apology in text form ( 1000 words) that covers your reasons of this outburst and ad your full name, address….I will look up one bar for you to make your own judgement after that. How´s that…  Marius?

By the way….I do have pretty good idea how you are and why you are saying these things.

and one more thing........ Merry Christmas.

Niko

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Hi Marius

i agree with Alan, except my opinion is that Niko makes “ the best “ modern wootz steel.  The patterns are absolutely wonderful !  He has worked very hard, and shared his experiences in many valuable posts.  I have forged a blade out of Niko’s barstock and it is indeed a wonderful steel.  ( which i would never part with and i cherish ! )

just my opinion, not to diminish the work of other  Wootzmakers in any sense

Id raise my glass and salute them all, for all their hardwork !

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