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Niko Hynninen

Reflection to the ancient steel.

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Jan.

 

That looks interesting..So this is the "missing bar" that you find durign

forge clean up? Im not sure but some how I had feeling and thought that you

made some test´s whit this...or do I remember wrong.

 

Even so this is and looks interesting pattern.

 

Niko

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Guys it's amazing patterns.

 

My patterns are not interesting. A lot of work waits me so that the effect is satisfactory.

Maybe some day. He will be successful. ;)

 

wootz1.jpg

Edited by Adski

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Niko,

Very nice.

 

Adam,

I am in the same situation as you are regarding most patterns...but there is hope..

 

After two discouraging recent crucible failures ( heated too fast) I am giving it another go..spent a while looking at the iron carbon phase diagram last night and here we go.

Jan

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The melt was interrupted by another crucible failure...at .5 hrs into the melt ( Indian carburization of wrought iron process)..the iron was just beginning to "flow". I am assigning the crucible failure to FeO/Silica fluxing of the body from the OUTSIDE. When I turned the heat up at .5hrs (trying for as low a carbon steel as I could get) the SS tube to the furnace began to melt and throw FeO onto everything. I think I salvaged the metal for another run . Estimated furnace temperature was just below 2700 degrees F or about 1500 C .

Here is a photo of what I have always been curious about ..?what is going on in there?Edges were just beginning to lose sharpness and some metal had accumulated at the bottom. These samples were also exposed to a period of decarburization after I attempted to pull the failed crucible from the furnace.

Jan

 

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Hi Jan.

 

Sorry to hear about crucible meltdown....its not nice..have done that two times..

About those bars...

It could be furface tension draw back... I have seen similar phenomen whit ice, and wax.. Just right

temp and melting zone...I think??

 

Do you have new ingot´s to forge?

 

Niko

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Hi Jan.


 


Sorry to hear about crucible meltdown....its not nice..have done that two times..


About those bars...


It could be furface tension draw back... I have seen similar phenomen whit ice, and wax.. Just right


temp and melting zone...I think??


 


Do you have new ingot´s to forge?


 


Niko

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Niko,

 

Hello,

I do have a new ingot to forge and am set up to melt a few more... We have a long dry season here and I have to get my ingredients made by smelting some iron in the rainy season. A couple of bad crucible days and I am out of 4 kilos of homemade iron...and I have a lot of bad crucible days. I am at a point where I can attempt to make some good wootz steel. There is so much to learn . If this ingot forges and looks really good I will start a "Persian Steel" thread hoping it does not drag out too long.

Some of the crucible problems I create for myself by changing temperatures too rapidly ( based on recent discussions with pottters ).

Jan

 

 

 

Edit

 

Niko,

The bars shown above were ground to that shape, rounded, because when attempting to melt broken file steel the sharp corners cracked my crucible when expanding during heating.

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein

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Finally I find " even its not hi quality image whit skale" pic of old Wootz

that is in same proportions than my blade.

 

 

Pattern skale comp.jpg

 

Niko

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Niko,

Nice to see some discussion in the bloomers and buttons cartegory especially if it is about wootz..I would prefer your pattern over the other one shown..but I like that very black look also. I am assuming your sample has been carved a bit then forged to flatten it out.

Keep it up it is looking good.

Jan

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Jan.

 

That " black look" is from this really low quality image and sens ist photo from book...it´s even lower quality.

I really think that that sword would have bean nice one as live.

 

From pic I think that C level is different between these two.

 

My " sample" is just forged..carving gives you totally different pattern.

 

Soon as weather gives the chance...this years first ingots will see the light, fire and hammer.

 

How´s your´s "persian steel" project is moving?

 

NIko

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Niko.

 

My " sample" is just forged..carving gives you totally different pattern.

That is amazing..

 

The Persian Steel Project is going very well ..I have one more run testing the Akhsiket process (in a handmade crucible), and if it works, I will start forging ingots. I am hoping to have the ability to produce various samples of steel likely to end up in Persian forges ( including those made in India by various methods)..based on some recent reading, there was a lot of trade. I must say, this project (which I hope to sort of terminate later this year) has been a pure pleasure for me ( lots of painful moments but a pleasure never the less) . The methods for doing the work and are in place, so doing a particular test will not be such a major undertaking. I can very much relate to Zaqro's 800 crucible steel tests ...it just takes a lot of time.

 

By the way..there are pieces of this puzzle not even in place yet

 

 

 

Jan

 

 

I am looking forward to Hada and Hamon, these topics will bring the attention to the eutectoid area of the phase diagram which is an area I do not know much about but am anxious to lelarn about.

Jan

 

 

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Niko.

 

My " sample" is just forged..carving gives you totally different pattern.

That is amazing..

 

The Persian Steel Project is going very well ..I have one more run testing the Akhsiket process (in a handmade crucible), and if it works, I will start forging ingots. I am hoping to have the ability to produce various samples of steel likely to end up in Persian forges ( including those made in India by various methods)..based on some recent reading, there was a lot of trade. I must say, this project (which I hope to sort of terminate later this year) has been a pure pleasure for me ( lots of painful moments but a pleasure never the less) . The methods for doing the work and are in place, so doing a particular test will not be such a major undertaking. I can very much relate to Zaqro's 800 crucible steel tests ...it just takes a lot of time.

 

By the way..there are pieces of this puzzle not even in place yet ...for example this picture created a conflict which I must resolve

 

It is a broken file but has information to assist the wootz maker.

 

 

Jan

 

 

I am looking forward to Hada and Hamon, these topics will bring the attention to the eutectoid area of the phase diagram which is an area I do not know much about but am anxious to lelarn about.

Jan

 

 

Edited by Jan Ysselstein

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Niko.

 

My " sample" is just forged..carving gives you totally different pattern.

That is amazing..

 

The Persian Steel Project is going very well ..I have one more run testing the Akhsiket process (in a handmade crucible), and if it works, I will start forging ingots. I am hoping to have the ability to produce various samples of steel likely to end up in Persian forges ( including those made in India by various methods)..based on some recent reading, there was a lot of trade. I must say, this project (which I hope to sort of terminate later this year) has been a pure pleasure for me ( lots of painful moments but a pleasure never the less) . The methods for doing the work and are in place, so doing a particular test will not be such a major undertaking. I can very much relate to Zaqro's 800 crucible steel tests ...it just takes a lot of time.

 

By the way..there are pieces of this puzzle not even in place yet ...for example this picture created a conflict which I must resolve

attachicon.gifP1020429.JPG

It is a broken file but has information to assist the wootz maker.

 

 

Jan

 

 

I am looking forward to Hada and Hamon, these topics will bring the attention to the eutectoid area of the phase diagram which is an area I do not know much about but am anxious to lelarn about.

Jan

 

Jan.

How you think that file steel assist´s Wootz maker? Sorry by I really dont see the line between these two...I would not even compare them in any level.

Also if you are refering terms Hada and Hamon in Wootz steel..I dont see that ither in comparative.

Dont get me wrong...if you feel coftable using terms like these in Wootz ok...Even these are Japanese terms in my mind.

 

My journey at moment has taken me 80 total of material´s to produce my Wootz to this level, its about 40 ingots, so

amoutn of ingots dosent need to be that hi....like forging cycles dosent need to be hi as 800 heats...bean there done that..

 

You refer to different / various methods of ancinet making of wootz.. so you mean different forging or making of steel?

 

 

Niko

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Niko,

When I started making iron from ore, the intent was to attempt to do what the Japanese were doing..Jeff Pringle came over showing off his Wootz knives and I was hooked. When I started reading about it, I was surprised to find most articles are using the same group of authors as their source of material...it almost seemed like a closed loop.

I have a degree of freedom by being a backyard blacksmith. Now I am at a point where I think I have information to share with some of those in that loop ( I intend to do so).

That file steel provides valuable information to the wootz maker but it is not wootz.

 

The challenge making of wootz includes the making of the ingot, the forging method and the heat treating as well. I am still just forging basic shapes with flat dies.( forging the ingots on their sides so to speak) ..seeing what patterns the various ingots create ( ingots are photographed and recorded as are the resulting patterns).

 

The Hamon and Hada are not for Wootz but for getting back to the original goal of trying out Japanese methods. The reasons for Wootz and Japanese steel making are to become familiar with the iron/carbon phase diagram.

Jan

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That file steel provides valuable information to the wootz maker but it is not wootz.

 

 

Only Wootz gives info to Wootz makers....

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Niko,

Let us leave the statement up and see who picks up on the possibility presented by that photo. The blade is clayed, water quenched and tempered at about 400-450 deg F.

 

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein

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Jan.

 

Of course

 

My point one this is just that only Wootz gives info how Wootz is made, becourse

we cant compare iron to steel or steel to cast iron...

 

During all these years I have tryed to find info from industry, books and other modern steel making

journal´s...but all of them have that same " flaw" they will quide in wrong way all most in every turn.

 

Maby thats the reason Im not seeing that...But in other hand...Im not changing my prosses, but it´s good that your pic gives info to somebody.

 

Im not saying my prosses or method is the one and only..as well it can be made several other methods...like it

most certaily had bean done in different places, different ore´s, different crucible´s, smiths and sword makers.

 

Method that im using is just that...My discovery...It gives this kinda Wootz othing more, but Im super happy sens to me its real as it gets.

 

Niko

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Niko,

I love the tension created by not knowing something...be it how you process wootz or how it was done in the past....or how different Japanese smiths arrive at a "look". The experimenting involved in attempting to get closer to these processes is rewarding and at times painful ( ingredients, crucibles, and time are expensive). In the wootz case, I am concentrating on the past, and may or may not trip on your method ( maybe Dmitry was correct when he said if you ( me) ever get good wootz it would be "Luck").

Keep up the good work ..one of these days we will meet in person and compare notes.

Jan

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( maybe Dmitry was correct when he said if you ( me) ever get good wootz it would be "Luck").

 

Jan.

 

It was year 2002 If memory serves me right when one man said to me that

" Iron making from ore is so hard you should never ever try that...first you need to know volume of furnace,air flow....and about 30 other

really importat allmost scientific facts I should have known before ever thiking to build furnace to make iron...

 

My point is that there is doubt´s...But that is one major driving forges that I get if one says just those words.

 

I sirously hope that you figure out all this by your self...then its not luck..For me this never was luck, whit out any arrogance I did figure it out,I actually run just that ingot way I wanted, forge it out just the way I wrote it in my notebook to see will this be the mystery key....And ques what...? Yes

Well we sure can debate was it luck...if we just start braking this in sections...yes..and...No

Was is just luck that any of us born in first place.. Way too deep for me in this time of year..

 

When you have that first pattern that you will call Wootz dirrectly from your heart...you need to think that is and was it just luck...or did I just figure out this.

Dont pay antention what others say...this goest to my saying too....just follow you heart and journey.

 

I will never ever be that man to say those words..words that one´s one man said to me...even so just maby...maby whit out those words I might not done all this.

 

...Makes you wonder.?

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Niko,

Of all people, you have worked very hard both physically and mentally and you get a lot of points for getting to where you are. Your point about people discouraging others is well taken and has often been experienced by one who has done many things he was told would be too hard.

In life and during experimentation I will take luck any time ( but will not claim it to be the result of hard work..when in fact luck was involved)..I suppose by heating a crucible and melting steel one increases the chance for luck to intervene in the process.

 

Regarding your process specifically..at some point I should be able to look at your result ( any result) make some guesses as to how that came to be..I am not there yet, but like the fellow who built that iron making furnace anyway..I am not discouraged. We better stop talking like this or we will have to move to The Way.

 

Jan

Edited by Jan Ysselstein

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Even freezing temps I run some Wootz ingots... 30,5 kg total / various sizes.

and had chance to forge some of those too.

 

Managet to forge 2 bars....whit quite nice pattern...even its not that big pattern.

 

DSCN0131 rs.jpg

 

DSCN0126rs.jpg

 

Niko

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Thanks Jeff :D

 

Both are still bars so these will chance some after some forging..

Have to figure out what to forge....?

 

 

Niko

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