Reflection to the ancient steel.

[Tim Mitchell]

7 minutes ago, Suzdalskiy S said:

Not only the pattern on the plane of the blade determines which "steel grade", not one crucible technology .... Everything should be considered in the complex. I think that the main core for determining the original ancient steel is its composition and internal structure.

I know what you are saying, but the problem is that the composition was so varied and there is no common composition... none.   The internal structure of the blades also is different between cluster sheet patterns, purely dendritic patterns and grain boundary patterns, so there is no common internal structure, only commonality in specific groups.  Even the ingots that came from Decanni were forged out in many different ways and many different patterns were obtained from them.  So there is no classification that we can use to say that something is or is not a correct reproduction of crucible steel in a general sense.  We have to be specific as to what we are trying to reproduce and frankly the precise composition is not as important as you may think.

[Alan Longmire]

Very well said, Tim!  Thank you for that.

[Suzdalskiy S]

Yes - if you want to get any crucible steel. If you want to get what is called a bulat, pulad, it can more specifically say than "wootz Damascus steel - Verhoeven"? Or is it different steel for the period of time and the region? First we need to specify the terms .. to talk about one type of crucible steel

[Tim Mitchell]

There is some confusion about this.  The truth is that Pulad means steel in the Persian language, Bulat comes from the same word meaning steel, Wootz comes from Ukku which was a local word meaning steel in one dialect in India.  It simply meant steel, nothing more nothing less.  Sometimes it was called "Indian Steel" if it came from India.  But the way the ancients designated between the different types of steel was to refer to it by either the maker, the region of forging or mostly by the pattern.  It was always classified by the pattern and that was broken down into the background colour and the nature of the watering or specific pattern. The pattern that Verhoeven talked about and was seeking to get was the Black Wootz or the black pattern from the Khorassan province in Persia.  It was a highly sought after pattern and that is why whey were trying to reproduce it. It was all called Pulad / Bulat / Wootz and much of it was made from ingots which came from Mysore or Decanni in India during the 16th century onwards.  However regardless of where the ingots were made, the final blade always bore the name of the location where it was forged or the nature of the pattern.  Hence it is acceptible for us to call a piece of crucible steel Wootz or Pulad etc. regardless of the pattern but it is good if we can also categorize the pattern.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Tim Mitchell

[Suzdalskiy S]

Yes. But the total is at least the period of time and the use of crucible technology. Yes, I agree, but the idea of generalizing and specifying the region can also be India and Persia production zone. The period is also around 10-18 centuries ...?

 

[Suzdalskiy S]

During this period, people could produce crimped iron, crucible steel, cast iron. Chosen for the production of weapons crucible technology - the production of higher quality steel. That's determined - the name (let it be common Pulad without a difference as it is treated, just like steel), crucible technology, region, time, direction for steel quality ...?

[Tim Mitchell]

You can't generalise with even production zones of Persia and India as there were many different patterns which came from these regions.  The only thing that we can do is to accept that it all is Pulad / Wootz and then just categorize according to specific patterns and perhaps the century.  This is the way that the old writers described crucible steel in the old days and I think we need to keep with their method instead of saying that this or that isn't wootz or pulad...

 

[Jeremy Blohm]

On 12/7/2017 at 12:15 PM, Marius Mioc said:

Hello Niko,

Interesting how you manage to get such a perfect watering pattern, that would make envious even Assad Allah, ON RAW, UNPOLISHED BARS?! All the wootz pattern I know comes after fine polishing and etching and no way directly after hammering and filing a bar.

Moreover, it is interesting how you present these astonishing patterns, yet you did NOT FORGE A SINGLE NEW BLADE  WITH THEM?!

So I believe that you are merely posting some photos of old wootz to which you applied some hammer and file strikes and claim that you produced it.

 

Did you join this forum just to post your accusations against Niko? I see you just joined and the first thing you post is these rude comments!

We are a different kind of forum here from what it looks like to me is you came straight from one of those fourwheeler forums or mechanic forums that people belittle other people because it makes them feel smarter or better than others. Hopefully this is all we have to listen to!

[Zeb Camper]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

Did you join this forum just to post your accusations against Niko? I see you just joined and the first thing you post is these rude comments!

We are a different kind of forum here from what it looks like to me is you came straight from one of those fourwheeler forums or mechanic forums that people belittle other people because it makes them feel smarter or better than others. Hopefully this is all we have to listen to!

I totally agree, but probably shouldn't take away from Niko's research and hard work by cluttering it with comments about Mario's (whatever his name was) arrogance. I think Emiliano pretty well said what needed saying.

[Vern Wimmer]

56 minutes ago, Zeb Camper said:

I totally agree, but probably shouldn't take away from Niko's research and hard work by cluttering it with comments about Mario's (whatever his name was) arrogance. I think Emiliano pretty well said what needed saying.

You are right but it would be enlightening to carry on a discussion of definitions and history in a new thread. I don't begin to claim to be up to speed on the metalurgy but I have had some experience with historical research and the idea of what we know, what we think we know, what we assume and presume.

[Tim Mitchell]

I second that. It would be good to move the discussion of history etc to another thread. The discussion has started to move off topic for this thread. 

[Vern Wimmer]

OK, being a unanamous decision between us two I will risk being the fool to start it with a wind-filled first post that besides boring everyone will probably kill the thread "aborning" as they used to say.

[Niko Hynninen]

  Well Hello!

Friend of mine said to me that there is “interesting talk” about me at one forum….I said I don’t care…but looked it up anyways. Interesting and sad to see how one person manage totally get his shit to spiral and crash. I could not care less about one or other saying “you can´t do that, it´s in possible to get this and that done, why don’t you do this and that”….Over years I have heard them all…But have done all that and more, plus shown that all is possible …Some have said even more…so you better get in line!

 I usually don’t care rat´s ass about harassment…but reading between lines one obviously “knows” what he is talking about or just needs some “mentoring” about crucible steel. This text of one clearly sounds like lack of information about crucible steel and as one has not got anything done related to “ancient steels” shouts out that I´m full of shit! Well…Dude…Why would you just ask about crucible steel melting set up…how it´s done and do it!... Show how it´s done…do you honestly think that I have done all that you say…Me getting some money spend those blades and show them as my own work? Have you ever heard term “occupational pride” "honour"? Do you know what it means?

   I sure don’t have to testify you nothing…Even its all there…just read it! I sure don’t have to make new or old blade…finish them just that you are question why I`m not making them ready… You need to understand some things about steel first than start flapping your suspenders. Whit out good patter there is no point making any blade…if you want to make best or at least similar blades as ancient times they need to have similar pattern. To fully understand what, how and why this pattern is created one need´s to make lots of testing. When you are in point that you can make multiple ingots and forge them to bars or semi raw blades and they all behave same way under your hammer and produce similar and wanted patter….only then you can say I got it.  It´s crystal clear that you have not done anything like this in your life and whit that attitude you never will. ….You just don´t get it! This journey is also about SISU… Word that you need look up first…

My tech and my method of making crucible steel might be different than what its bean said over the internet about it. My chemistry is 99,8 % same as some of analysis made from “real” ones…also pattern of steels structure under microscope is 100% same as ancient ones. I don’t do those “tricks” that some folks are doing. As now there is 5 different methods how I can forge ingot to bar. I don’t get nice watering pattern every time I melt ingot as there is all ways that x factor in this…small things makes difference. Good crucible steel whit watering pattern is allways really small spheroids one perlite matrix…that makes nice pattern…clusters, GB Cm and elongated texture gives totally different look and pattern.

But let´s play it like you want… If you can produce public apology in text form ( 1000 words) that covers your reasons of this outburst and ad your full name, address….I will look up one bar for you to make your own judgement after that. How´s that…  Marius?

By the way….I do have pretty good idea how you are and why you are saying these things.

and one more thing........ Merry Christmas.

Niko

[Niko Hynninen]

One video for all.

Forgin CSteel.wmv

Niko

[Jeremy Blohm]

 

Well said Niko!!!

[JJ Simon]

Sometimes there is nothing that can be done with trolls except give them the cross.

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Marius

i agree with Alan, except my opinion is that Niko makes “ the best “ modern wootz steel.  The patterns are absolutely wonderful !  He has worked very hard, and shared his experiences in many valuable posts.  I have forged a blade out of Niko’s barstock and it is indeed a wonderful steel.  ( which i would never part with and i cherish ! )

just my opinion, not to diminish the work of other  Wootzmakers in any sense

Id raise my glass and salute them all, for all their hardwork !

[Jan Ysselstein]

Greg,   I could not agree with you more, we are grateful for Niko"s contribution to the subject. Somewhere here is a post of a writeup Niko has done on how he works .I have a copy of but cannot locate it right now. 

So now we have you, Nickel Dime, Al Pendray , Niko and Georgian 'Bulat' technology by Zaqro Nonikashvili . That is a lot of readily available information to anyone wanting to start making wootz.  Not to mention the classes offered by Ric.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Jan Ysselstein

[Joshua States]

On 12/18/2017 at 12:13 PM, Jan Ysselstein said:

So now we have you, Nickel Dime, Al Pendray , Niko and Georgian 'Bulat' technology by Zaqro Nonikashvili . That is a lot of readily available information to anyone wanting to start making wootz.  Not to mention the classes offered by Ric.

So I clicked on this link and started reading. In many of the threads there are links to more info and links to more info. I fell down the rabbit hole and was lost for over an hour.

[Niko Hynninen]

Some light to Crucible steel pattern.

Here seen is raw ingot structure at first, then pre state where some decarb is seen, and pattern from this after foriging and fast grid whit 120 belt in all pics.

Ecth is done whit light nital / iron sulfate that is great for chemistry of this steel.

And...for notification. This is just one bar of series of last 10 tests of melts,ingots and forgings, also it proofs that my curent reseby and tech produces this watering every time. 

...Need to step up to next level pattern development.

 

-N-

 

 

[Tim Mitchell]

Very nice fine spherodized groupings Niko!  You have a very nice pattern there. Good work!
 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Tim Mitchell

[Joshua States]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:15 PM, Tim Mitchell said:

Very nice fine spherodized groupings Niko!  You have a very nice pattern there. Good work!
 

And......it's repeatable! Awesome.

[Tim Mitchell]

LOL Yes...All patterns are repeatable it is just a matter of knowing how... It will be good to hear eventually what that method is.  It will be helpful in the learning of many smiths.  Niko does some really nice patterns and I am really happy for him that he is getting consistency now.

[Jan Ysselstein]

Thanks Niko, those are some interesting pictures ...particularly the transition from the "pre-state" to the pattern condition. I am in the process of trying to get some value out of some over cooked samples and will post the results if any are found.

 

[Niko Hynninen]

More I forge new series of ingots more convinced I get.

Blade is raw shape cutting edge 530mm long, 63mm wide and at spine10mm..so heavy piece still.

 

 

N

Edited February 6, 2018 by Niko Hynninen