Jump to content

Before or After HT?


John Page

Recommended Posts

I have been working on a little EDC that I intend to carve the tang of. All the forging is done (a little finishing work on the belt sander to even things out), but I have not heat treated it yet. This is where I am hung up. Carving now and losing the blade to the HT could mean several hours lost, but the HT (in my experience) has made the tang too hard to file effectively, and there will be loads of that. (No, I do not necessarily quench the tang or bring it up to critical)

 

Would it be plausible to do an edge quench and then anneal the tang only in a cannister of vermiculite? Normalization is not getting it where it needs to be at this point, as it seems to be air hardening a little, and I'm afraid that doing anything to the tang will also spread somewhat into the blade.

 

This seems to be one of those win-lose/win-lose situations :wacko:

 

John

tang.png

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what is the steel? i would concentrate on getting the tang dead soft at this stage. then, so long as you don't bring it to critical and quench it should still be dead soft after h-t (make sure you grind all the scale off as it will kill files)- if you are worried, then a heavy coat of clay on the tang should keep it from toughening up. it also suggest that that design as you've laid it out, with the large interstices, would probably be easiest to carve pierced, if you have a decent drill press - it'll take you maybe half an hour to centre pop and drill the necessary holes, and round holes don't form bad stress risers, so i'd do that pre h-t, then you can do far more carving with just files than you'd be able to otherwise. looks cool. good luck.

Jake Cleland - Skye Knives

www.knifemaker.co.uk

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

 

Albert Einstein

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the advice, Jake. The steel is 1084 I believe. I intent do drill as much out of it as possible, and use files for the refinement, possibly a little dremel work in the tight spaces. Where the pieces interlace, that will be in tact, just a few lines carved down to accent the pattern. Would there be any problem leaving the tang soft after it is finished (ready for use)? I assume that under normal wear, it won't experience much deformation, but you never know...

 

I'll rig up a vermiculite tube and get it soft. Fortunately at this point, most of the work went into the design rather than the steel. If it turns out well, I might have to make another!

 

Thanks again

 

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do your drilling, filling, and shaping before hardening. As long as you do an edge quench and are careful, it should not affect the tang. Otherwise, you could harden (I assume doing a full quench) and draw the temper back on the tang, with a torch, while the blade is in a water bath. The second option would be harder, because the water draws enough heat 1/4" to 3/8" above the surface to prevent the steel from softening. The other argument for doing the shaping now, if it is Aldo's 1084, is that the steel is in an ideal state for drilling, filling, and sanding. After hardening and tempering the steel in the tang may not be nearly as nice to work. With all of my own knives I deliberately make the tangs as soft as possible. Tough is what is needed there, not hard.

 

~Bruce~

“All work is empty save when there is love, for work is love made visible.” Kahlil Gibran

"It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them." - Alfred Adler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use tungsten carbide bits in a dremel and it will be alot faster. I have been carving steel

on my latest piece and they have worked pretty well .

Edge quenched the blade and was able to carve in my makers mark with them in the top

half of the blade.

It takes awhile but you get there .

 

Anyways thought I migh add some of my limited experience.

 

Geoff

The blacksmith and the artist reflect it in their art.

They forge their creativity,closer to the heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the tips Geoff, I'll have to pick a set of those up. The ones I currently have are little aluminium oxide things on the end of steel rods, and they don't last all that long. That, and a pair of fine steel/diamond (?) burrs. Is this something that I can get off the shelf, or would it be beneficial to order direct? That whole discussion on files opened my eyes a little to tool quality, and if it makes a significant difference, it would well be worth the extra hassle of ordering and shipping.

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the tips Geoff, I'll have to pick a set of those up. The ones I currently have are little aluminium oxide things on the end of steel rods, and they don't last all that long. That, and a pair of fine steel/diamond (?) burrs. Is this something that I can get off the shelf, or would it be beneficial to order direct? That whole discussion on files opened my eyes a little to tool quality, and if it makes a significant difference, it would well be worth the extra hassle of ordering and shipping.

 

John

I got my little burr set from lee valley it was like 30$ and has taken some serious abuse but that site that sterling posted for burrs seems really good 2$ a bit and for you guys in the U.S free shipping on a minimum order(being in Canada can suck for shipping). I asked about there sizing on the site and it is sized in mm all the way down to .5mm .Here is the link(you posted it for me a little while ago lol).

 

http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/index.php?/topic/1678-how-to-carve-steel-wormy-wood/

The blacksmith and the artist reflect it in their art.

They forge their creativity,closer to the heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:lol: I love it how things can go full circle like that. Thanks, I would never have thought to look there.

Thanks!

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a principle of making inexpensive mistakes early, rather than expensive mistakes later, ("fail fast") I'd save the carving for the final finish.

Simple steels should be easy to HT with the tang dead soft. If it's hardened, you should be able to make it dead soft without effecting the hardness of the edge.

If the steel is air hardening, then you have a problem. I wouldn't try this on air/age hardening steel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did some work on this piece this morning, and I am glad that it wasn't much. I drilled as much out as I could, and went for the quench. Ping.

This is the first time I have heard the distinct cracking of the steel, and it was awful. A good bit 2/3 of the way to the tip cracked right along where I edge quenched it, then jutting out towards the edge. The good news is it was straight, hard, and otherwise in tact. The bad news is, of course, it is 100% unsalvageable. I tried hitting it with my hammer to break it open for grain inspection, and it took a lot longer than I thought. After the cracked piece came out, it wasn't horrible, but not the best either.

 

But, fortunately, most of the work at this point went into the design, not execution. Take #2 to happen eventually...

 

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Forged a new blade monday, and I was hoping to get the HT done this week but time has been scarce of late. I like the shape of this one much better than the first, and I don't know if I want to use it for this project. A little while back, I made a thin blade to put a pair of mokume scales on, but I might try and do something similar with this one instead. Anyway, I'll be trying an edge quench again, and go from there.

 

John

Ringback EDC_2.PNG

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Survived the edge quench, and only a little warpage. Tempering at the moment, pictures and the design redrawn on the blade to come.

 

John

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a shot post quench, pre temper. It's been through two cycles of an hour each now, and I've started sanding down the scratches left by 80# used in scale removal. No surface cracks, and the minimal warpage is now hardly noticeable. Now that I can hold it with the relatively finalized shape, I'm not sure if it will be receiving the ring knot pattern (too thin). I'm hoping for a temper line from the quench once I polish it a little farther, and then I'll likely be putting on a pair of mokume scales I made yesterday.

 

John

post edge quench.png

Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien

-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog
-Nine Worlds Workshop-
-Last Apocalypse Forge-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...