Baltic War Knives

[Myles Mulkey]

Hey forumites, I'm looking for information on the war knives/seax-ish things from the Viking Age. I haven't been able to find any good sources online, and I'm hoping somebody here can help me out.

 

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's like a seax, only different.

 

 

I'm looking for typical dimensions, where they were used, when they were used, etc. Any information at all would be helpful.

[GEzell]

Have you looked through this thread?(page 1 and page 4) I know they are discussed, but I do not know if any of your questions were answered. I do not know as much about these as I'd like... I made a few blades for a guy in Sweden, 1 inch wide x 13.75 inch long x 1/4+ inch thick with extra-long (8 inch) tangs, really cool blades with a lot of presence even without handles, they remind me of nice bayonets (thick, narrow and stabby). There are no set measurements I know of, I suspect the ones I made were about average for the type. Here is one of those he put a handle on. I'll see if I can get some information from him, he knows far more about these than I...

[Adomas Sviklas]

1. These were used by semigallians (žiemgaliai). They are also called "kertapeilis", it means chop knife. Length varies 27–53 cm. Widest part 3,4–8,1 cm.

 

2. These also were used by semigallians. Length varies 32–43,5 cm. Width 2,3–3,6 cm. They usually have brass ring on handle.

 

If I'll have time and if You are interested I can scan more from archaeology books in library.

[Kevin Colwell]

check out the resources that Niels Provos and if you go to any post by Jeroen Zuiderwijk you can find some seax info linked under his signature.

 

That and the Vikverirs resource page above in this History forum.

 

those are my best ideas. Hope they help. I personally like the bauernwehr that evolved out of these knives a lot, too.

 

hope this helps.

kc

[Doug Lester]

If you haven't come to the realization already, what you are looking at is not like a seax, only different, it's a seax. There were several styles of the knife other than the broken back seax. Oakeshotte even considered the single edge Norse sword with an upper and lower guard to be a seax.

 

Doug

[Mark Green]

Myles, If you just search around on this site a very little bit, there is a world of seax info.

 

Or just do a simple google search.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=seax+knife&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS380US380&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L1LsUKmuBpK68wTr34CYDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=508

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=long+seax&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS380US380&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GFTsUKHZDYb68gTZmYGAAw&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=508

 

Our own Jesus Hernandez, made one very much like your pic. above.

 

http://jhbladesmith.com/gallery/wakizashi-and-short-swords/125.html

 

 

Mark

Edited January 8, 2013 by Mark Green

[peter johnsson]

The photo is taken by me during a documentation of artifacts in the store room of the archaeological collection of Uppsala University.

 

The blade on these can be some 40 cm long and have pretty thick backs at some 6-7 mm. They have a central spear point design and a triangular cross section. The edge bevels go right up to the spine. There is very little apple seed curvature going on in the section. I know of no example that is pattern welded. They are pretty narrow. Most are about 2.5 cm wide at the base. They taper very little in width and the taper in thickness is from 6 or 7 mm down to some 3-4 mm.

 

Among archaeologists these weapons are called war knives. Not seaxes. What the viking called them, we have no idea.

They may not even be war knives but viking period "Hirshfänger" knives: long slim hunting knives to finish of larger game. They are found in rich graves of well to do men, that include riding gear and archery equipment beside the usual sword, spear and shield. A knife for those who were well of and had elevated status in society.

 

I have made a copy of one of these knives. They are a bit odd. They do actually not feel so much like weapons for war. More like a hunting weapon. I cannot say I am completely convinced either way. It is good to call them war knives however. That will avoid any confusion when looking for info in literature.

[J.Arthur Loose]

Some of my next pieces! Though I am going to throw caution to the wind and make 'em pattern welded.

[Doug Lester]

Interesting, Peter. I wouldn't have thought that they would have been quite as narrow. Can I assume that they were of piled construction? Any information on carbon content or evidence of heat treating or were the edges just work hardened?

 

Doug

[peter johnsson]

I do not know of any analysis of their metallurgy. There may well be, but I have not come across it, nor have I looked for it specifically.

I have discussed their construction with a couple of archaeologists, one of whome had specifically studied them. Some reportedly have scraped groves along the back (on the back itself, not the sides: the knives that is, not the archaeologists ;-).

I have not seen details like that myself. The half dozen or so that I have seen have all been pretty simple looking. But looks can deceive and not everything is revealed as remains of the scabbard tends to hide the blade.

I cannot swear some were not pattern welded, but the archaeologist I talked to said he knew of no pattern welded examples.

Most likely they are constructed like viking period knives typically are: no pattern welding, just iron welded on to a steel edge, sandwich fashion, or side to side. There are some papers showing the typical variations for the construction of viking period knives. I do not remember seeing pattern welding being very common.

 

-But it would surely look nice ;-)

Depends on what your interest is in a project like this.

 

I should add that those long knives I have seen in Latvia, on the other side of the pond from where I live, had slightly different types of blades: thinner cross section and slightly wider blades. To me those blades looked even more murderous and grim than the ones I´ve seen in the Swedish material. I have some drawings of these baltic knives and will scan and post them if I find them :-)

Hilt furniture and decoration seemed to me a bit more crude. Still handsome and eye catching, but less carefully made. I do not know if I have seen representative examples of the baltic material.

[peter johnsson]

Adomas, I would very much like to see more examples! Unfortunately I cannot see your attached images. Could you please try and post again?

I am very interested to learn more about these knives.

[Myles Mulkey]

Wow guys! Thanks for all the replies.

 

As for whether these are or are not seaxes, I'd just like to quote Peter as he stated above:

"Among archaeologists these weapons are called war knives. Not seaxes."

These seem to be a different phenomenon from seaxes. A "Gotlandic" sheath doesn't make it a seax

 

 

Peter, that's exactly what I was after. Fantastic. Thanks!

 

Jul, I can't wait to see where you take this. Going to be awesome. My own project ideas shudder in comparison...

Edited January 11, 2013 by Myles Mulkey

[Jeff Pringle]

Jørgensen in "Waffen und Gräber" calls these the Gotlandic variant of SAX5, and claims they were popular in the 750-800 AD range. I can provide some photos of their grooved backs & other details , soonishly

[Myles Mulkey]

Jeff that would be awesome! Share away!

 

I'm surprised they're from so early a period. Very cool.

[Mark Green]

Soonishly. I love that word. I will have to use that a lot when my Honey, asks me to do something I'm not thrilled about.

 

Mark

[Doug Lester]

Mark, I hope She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed has a sense of humor. Unfortunately, none of my three ex-wives did .

 

Doug

[Artis Aboltins]

Here is one such "war knife" (sometimes called in literature over here a "short single edged sword") from 11th century burial in Priekuli-Gugeri in Latvia. It is very rich burial, containing a sword, war-knife, shorter knife, spear and axe, not to menthion a LOT of jewelry.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Artis Aboltins

[J.Arthur Loose]

Nice! Thanks, Artis!

[Jeff Pringle]

Here's a start, I have to take more photos of the wire wrap.

1/8" squares on the background

The grooves go end to end, shallow concave with a rounded ridge between.

The wood was in two pieces, highly polished

[peter johnsson]

I find it interesting that those eastern baltic knives often seems to have a belly to the edge, when the western baltic ones have a more or less straight edge (at least those I have seen in person and depicted).

I am still looking for my sketches from my baltic trip. I shall scan and post when I find them.

 

Jeff: nice details on the grip! Very similar to smaller knives. Those silver wire bindings seems to have been a popular bling factor.

:-)

[J.Arthur Loose]

Thanks for sharing that, Jeff! I haven't seen one with multiple wraps like that. I like it!

[Myles Mulkey]

MAN these are cool knives...

[GEzell]

More pictures...

[Artis Aboltins]

George, fabulous pictures! From which publication are they? Vendelzeit?

[GEzell]

George, fabulous pictures! From which publication are they? Vendelzeit?

Unfortunately I do not know, they were sent to me when the knife in my first post was commissioned, and I realized I had them buried on my hard-drive and they might be of use to someone. I will contact him and find out.