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Forging VS stock removal herasy


Brett Josef Schmidthuber
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explains lot's ... bout the yoni knife and pendant!

I get it....all the pieces are fittin together...  :;):  

 

guess i'll have to wear a trench coat out to the forge now...

:P

 

 

Greg

 

ps...hey... didn't that james black fellow heat treat jim bowie's knife behind a curtain in his shop...   he had a secret technique that no one was allowed to see....  heh heh.......  

Tai...I think you just busted him on his secret..

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Hey Brian and y'all,... I give lessons at my shop. :D

...and if I ever get out that way you can bet I'll be there for some....Er,...Ju-Ju Goo lessons.  :laugh:

 

You said *LoAd*.

 

Super

 

Brian

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

 

"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."

- Lyle E. Schaller

 

http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html

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You sure can't forge a 2000 year old Roman spear blade into a stock-removal blade.

 

Joking aside, there is magic in forging & smelting.

 

Magic as bending reality or magic as potent symbolism.  Either way.

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What I'm saying is,... how do you stock reduction dudes get your Ju-Ju out? :D

Get it out? Hell, it was *BoRn* out, Dude!  Super

 

I slide it over the platten after having scribed it...every curve and dimension has been taken into account. Gently I hold it and press it firmly (yet precisely) to the mother of all grinding belts.

 

And it conforms to my wishes. All the un needed meat is pulled away and the heat gradually builds and builds... Sometimes it gets so hot I have to pull away and cool it off in a tank of cool, refreshing water. Then I'm ready for another go at it! :angry:

 

By and by, the steel that is not part of the final plan is pulled off the outside and what is left is *SO* hot it is searing my fingers...smoke is rising and the difference between pleasure and pain becomes inconsequencial. I must have it my way and no other way....

 

Errrr...what was the question? Oh yeah. Ju-Ju via stock removal.

 

Mostly it comes after the heat treat. I stroke it for hours and hours over every square millimeter for hours on end until it gleams and every line and plane is exactly to my liking. The edge? Like a microscopic toothy razor. I shed my sweat, my intent, my skill and my experience upon this finely honed surface untill it is done. Blood. Did I mention blood? Sometimes I stoke it sooo hard and for so long that I forget myself and cristen the blade with blood. So everything I posess and have to offer is infused into the very being of this article.

 

My Ju-Ju is there. And then I sleep and dream of another, more demanding mistress of steel and curves.

 

And it begins again.

 

:o

 

Brian

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

 

"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."

- Lyle E. Schaller

 

http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html

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Jesus bloody christ on a pogo-stick square-dancing with  Cthulhu!  I post something and walk away for a day, and look what happens! That's allooooot of posts :D

 

Chuck- I plan to post the results of the tests here, and I will be doing some things similar to the ABS tests, but I like My own tests, More. Test on cutting rope using a scale to determin pressure needed and counting cuts, the obligatory chop the hell out of some 2 X 4's, stab the point through multiple layers of sheet-steel, Clamp in vice, messure pressure needed to bend, then measuring differences in ease of sharpening and grinding, and of course snapping it off and examining grain under magnification.

 

Jonathan, Tai - I'm wondering if the ah... "carbon content count" of your ju-ju is also a deciding factor of the ju-ju based performance enhancement in the edged tool. This could indeed be the secret to excaliber itself! That coupled by not *COUGH* coming' up to heat TOO quickly may just do the trick!

 

"- why would the pro's pay more for this hot rod part if it was just hype" - Greg, I hate to say this but you're not obeying rule #1 to surviving, and making sense of life on earth -- People are stupid. sometimes hype alone DOES sell. Thankfully this isnt ALWAYS the case. By the way, From experiance - forging in a trench coat is great!Especially if they're made of a nice, heavy suede. Very tough, cut resistant, and catches random liquid splatters of hot oil, blood, Or even ju-ju! I have nothing but love for My trench's. :)

I have suffered for My arts... Now it's your turn.

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It sounds like Brian rubs it in.

 

I do it that way sometimes, sometimes leave it set,... but mostly just throw a dirty rag at it and walk away.  :D

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Now this has been an...erm....interesting thread.

That's what I like about Tai. He's as weird as I am.:cool:

"I'm not anti-gun. I'm pro-knife." Molly Ivins

NT Limpin' Cat Prokopp

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I don't think of Myself as weird, I think of Myself as Normal :nod: It's just too bad 99% of people are raving weirdo's that can't appriciate the subtle details of My Normality ;-)

You two are probably Normal, too. :D

I have suffered for My arts... Now it's your turn.

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Guest Kevin H

Brian, regarding your post of Feb. 12, I was referring to actual steel structure, wasn't even thinking of nonmetallics associated with steel processing. However, some of them indicate rolling direction as well. When I was actively looking at steel microstructures (about 20 years ago) inclusions were classified into 1 of 4 broad categories - sulfides (mostly manganese sulfides when checked with an electron microscope), silicates - complex combinations of silica & metals, aluminates - complex combinations of alumina and metals, and oxides - mostly complex ones of more reactive metals such as chromium.

 

At hot rolling temperatures sulphides are plastic and elongate with the rolling direction. Silicates typically are less plastic at rolling temperature than sulphides, but also tend to elongate in the rolling direction. Oxides and aluminates tend to be non-plastic at rolling temperature, so they are less indicative of rolling direction. They often show up in a photomicrograph as spherical/semispherical particles.

 

As to what would happen if you put a piece of steel through a bunch of thermal cycles above the critical temperature - I'm not certain as I' don't think I ever saw steel heat treated in that manner. My WAG is that it would minimize the remains of the rolling structure, but probably not totally obliterate it. A lot would depend on the details of the thermal cycling.

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Ambrose Bierce defined us in his exemplary dictionary...

Eccentric(adj): Possessing a higher and more refined level of originality.

"I'm not anti-gun. I'm pro-knife." Molly Ivins

NT Limpin' Cat Prokopp

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We can all only go by experience I guess, since many do not trust the metallurgy and testing done.

That said, I forged and ground and tested many times using the same steel and same heat treat.

With simple carbons, the forge product wins.

 

I am convinced that the cold temperature finish forging and the triple normalizing cycle have an effect. But much of that can be accomplished with thermal treatments on a ground blade. As for cold temp forging and normalizing? I will never not do it. I have tested with and without it and there is a marked difference in overall performance; mostly in deflection and tensile strength.

As for cutting, large grain has its place. Boye knew it and explored it with his somehwhat brittle but great cutting, cast 440C kitchen-knives. Dendritic, large grain cutters. In fact I have had a little knife that I made the grain out to be a ridiculously large Nie (large grain structure) that cuts things like a champ. VERY aggressive edge. but its brother knife snapped like glass in deflection.

So there is a place for things, and a reason for the performance curve of what we are doing.

 

With Tai it may be that his goo is the Mojo that he gets all over the piece.  I do love to forge but have never been that excited by it. :cool:

 

With Powder metallurgy stainless? I grind.

With Katana -ultrafolded- or simple monsteel-no difference.

I have never and will never grind a sword. I perform tameshigiri on trees up to three inches and I do not have set bends in the blades. I have also cut cable and brass rod. I do this to test my method of manufacture and the blades, not me.

 

Speaking of test cutting...what are we doing and for what reasons? To test a tool that has a day to day purpose  or weapon of war with a predetermined performance curve is a means and a rationale al its own or are we relegated to making artificial tools to zip through test targets? Tools that have virtually no use or meaning other than to cut a test object?

I am no fan of the ever popular and growing grass cutting set. It doesn't mean much, if anything at all, as almost anyone can do it. My wife can do it, so can my son, in fact I have never had a student with even the simplist training in real sword arts fail to cut a roll of grass or even a tree. I have seen some wankers fail though.

Even the nature of test cutting with a sword should involve far more than standing and cutting. If you watch the many new guys they plant their feet wind up and if you look at their hips and belly they are waaayyy over extended in the cut. Thus leaving a tactical opening that is completely inept in any practical sense as they have to re-align for target auquisition. Most koryu including my own, teach to cut with the hips in line and not to overextend. In fact when I cut the hip change is barely noticable at all. Thus you can re-aquire target with little motion or time lost. Many of the newer Budo and Iai arts have guys with hips all over the place. It is really all rather embrassing as it is as far from any thing "martial" as you can get. And all of this power cutting is uneeded anyway. That type of power "cutting-through" would have no practical value on any battle field or street encounter anyway. One the one hand what are you cutting?

Armor?

Nope! I don't think so. Not if you've half a brain in your head.

And all that power wind-up work? That would get you nailed midway in the process on any field.

What cut is worthwhile while on the move that is worth doing then? Cuts to openings which are quick in and out and small winding cuts to arteries.

So where is value of the big tip heavy cutters there? To wear you out? It is better to have Light, and fast, with excelllent balance while retaining niku. There is no need for a monster cutter. I have handled many antique weapons from different cultures, the common thread was their lightness and cross sectional strength. But you cannot make a Katana -with flat sides that are weaaaay to thin because it is will cut grass like butter-and still cal it a katana. You may call it a modern sword thingy, or even a test cutting sword. but it is no weapon that you are testing. It is wholely artificial.

The same goes for knife tests. We should be cutting what we cut in the real world, testing knives and swords with profiles that would have had a practical and survivable profile at the time and place of its intented use. I've no interest in a bowie thin as a kitchen knife that will zip through rope. If I wanted that, I would by a vegetable cutter.  Much of these contests have lost site of the intent of a practical tool for the job being tested for its in-service use. It's not about, or at least should not be about; pre-designed artificial tools made for cutting a contest target.

Whats the value in that? It is bringing the ridiculously artificial.....to the sublime.  

 

Cheers

Dan

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The same goes for knife tests. We should be cutting what we cut in the real world, testing knives and swords with profiles that would have had a practical and survivable profile at the time and place of its intented use. I've no interest in a bowie thin as a kithen knife that will zip through rope. If I wanted that I would by a vegetable cutter.  Much of these contests have lost site of the intent of a practical tool for the job being tested for its in-service use. Not predesigned artificial tools made for cutting a contest target. Whats the value in that? It is bringing the ridiculously artificail to the sublime.  

 

Cheers

Dan

Well said, Dan.  Super

 

On cutting real targets with intended weapons, If you can find me human volunteers who are deserving and willing, I'll cut 'em. Got to be easier on the swords than 2X4s.  :)

 

Unfortunately, there are few who practice the martial arts with this mindset anymore. Possibly one of the reasons we have to have this discussion about whether or not forged is better than stock removal and why....few people I know are well versed enough, experienced enough, or well trained enough to tell the difference in performance anyway.

 

Seems as if tools and performance are more about computer speed or engineering now a days as I'm one of the few people I know who frequently uses his swords as weapons for their intended purpose...which is to cut varied materials that might have been once encountered in combat. Few people understand that a sword is not a big knife...fewer people understand balance and geometry, hasuji, tenuchi, and tachisuji as it applies to the use of edged weapons for their intended use. I have met a few in person during my journey...Howard Clark, Randal Graham, Obata Toshishiro, and Mike Blue. But the world is distinctly lacking of those with a real understanding of the performance issues from a "user' point of view. Most makers are competent users and understand the basics. Very few of the general public understand "performance" and what it takes to generate it from a makers point of view.

 

I grind swords. 5160 with state of the art heat treat is pretty awesome compared to the forged/ground modern blades of 1050 or so I've used/destroyed. Most nihonto I have used and seen bent were simply second class weapons compared to the stock removal 5160 I use. But thats not comparing apples and apples.

 

If I could significantly improve the performance of my 5160 blades by forging, I would do it given the space and ability. When my new shop is built I intend to exploit the stock removal vs forged dilemma first hand. Till then I accept the experience of the forge meisters and envy those with broader skills and experiences than my own.  Not Worthy

 

Nice to see you here, Dan. Welcome!

 

Brian

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

 

"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."

- Lyle E. Schaller

 

http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html

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I forge because I enjoy it.  I forge because without setting up the bevel with a hammer, I can't grind a good bevel.  I forge because it saves me alot of time behind the grinder, eating steel dust and using up my belt supply.

 

It's the thermal treatments that matter, not how you shaped it...:)

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


view some of my work

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Dan-I absolutely agree about your thoughts on test-cutting. and I agree with Brian. Find Me willing humans (alive or dead) and I'll cut them more often than I do other targets. I have been trying to develope targets that  are more creature-like, in shape and cutting resistance. Layers of cardboard/cellfoam and PVP/wood bones and the like.

 

I Am also one who pays ALOT of attention to how I move during cutting -- I cut like I'm fighting. I have a fighting mindset. I envision the target as a person with a multitude of different weapons, in different stances and hands. I always cut in a way that positions My body in a way that It's the least vulnerable as possible after the cut, and frequently practice parrying + escaping,  or/and second (or third or fourth) follow-up cuts/stabs. There are a couple truths that most people don't realize -- First, just because a person receive lethal damage, doesnt mean they still can't kill you. The second, is that as a general rule with Melee combat, a living thing is MOST dangerous, when it IS dying.

 

Most of what kinds of cuts I use, are the ones I've found work for Me when doing realistic sparring against other people. In the badly quoted words of bruce lee, "Targets don't hit back."

 

To add more fun I do things during training most people, dont. Not just in cutting practice, but in  all training, period. Most people train under best mental and physical conditions. I alot of times like to train as if I've already been injured or "handy-capped". Disabled arm, screwed up leg, sleep deprevation and exhaustion,  or spin around in a circle fast for a few minutes and start sparring/training to simulate a blunt force head injury. Actually one time sparring I took a shin-kick to the head with quite alot of force -- Vision went EVERYWHERE spinning, I could feel My balance screwing up, but I remained standing and kept fighting. The benefits of will and muscle-memory-training :D

I have suffered for My arts... Now it's your turn.

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Most people train under best mental and physical conditions. I alot of times like to train as if I've already been injured or "handy-capped". Disabled arm, screwed up leg, sleep deprevation and exhaustion,  or spin around in a circle fast for a few minutes and start sparring/training to simulate a blunt force head injury.

Well, I always move, talk and type as if I'm suffering from some sort of "blunt force head trauma"..... ???

 

So, despite the way folks react to me I guess I'm way ahead of the game.  :cool:

 

Brian

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

 

"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."

- Lyle E. Schaller

 

http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html

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Weapon testing?

 

We should suit up and try to kill each other.  :)

 

Reminds me of a Weyland story:  Weyland and the king's court smith decide who is the better smith by devising a contest.  The court smith will make his best suit of armor and Weyland will make his best sword.  Then will Weyland get one strike.  The loser will be put to death in either case.  Anyway, this is the bit where Weyland feeds iron filings to geese and collects the poop in order to make nitrided steel... the sword cuts through both armor and man.

 

Who's up for a contest?

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Gents

 

Actually I think you missed my point, or at least have not addressed it fully. This, of course, is probably due to the fact that I am a terrible writer. My first concern is that the shape of the weapons or tools are starting to be contrived toward test cutting. They have lost their inherint weapon value for the era of their make and type of use in that era in favour of a shape that cuts a soft target well. This goes as well, albiet in a different sense, for knives which have their own tool value.

 

Of minor concern to me is all the suburban white boys making up martial skill sets that have no relevance to the weapons actual use in war. I am more interested in skill sets (such as the Japanese Koryu and other Euro arts) that have a known pedigree of techniques that were and are real in their designed execution, with a known weapon design. And they can prove out that use through documentation.

 

Men bashing things in the back yard with big long handles has little to do with weapons of war as they were used in a time of war. Our recreation attempts just lead to many errors of tactical and pragmatic use. What were they doing, when, and why?

 

When you take the two together you can get the implausable scenarios like we see today.

Sceneario A

Our intrepid young swordsman gets up with a big heavy cutter and cuts with a big windup

1. first of all the windup will get you killed

2. the heavy cutter takes too long -hence it was, and is not; real  

3. The heavy cutter will wear you down to fast in a prolonged battle, they were rarely ever used -in the day- -hence it was, and is not; real  

4. The targets you wish to cut are not armored and are underneath things, (lacings) not on top of things. Unfortunately people still think all of the warriors were in full armor and men set about bashing each other with edged weapons. This is utter nonsense. They were not that stupid gents. You did not need to bash with blades -it happend but it was not the intent by design. War hammers, maces, arrows and rocks did the heavy bashing and penetrating. Read many of the books of strategy and you will be amazed at the amount of rock throiwing on battlefields thruought Europe and Japan. We should also note that the sword fighting-meaning sword hits sword, changes angle and.. sword hits sword again- and again, edge to edge; makes great movies not real fighting. Soldiers were trying to kill people-not each others edges hence the heavy cutter to bash was, and is not; real

 

Sceneario B

Our intrepid young swordsman gets up with an all too thin, tailor made, flat angle grass cutter tat zips through like machete.

1. This is not a true sword. It would not have survived any serious engagement in an ear where sword were used. it is tooo light duty. -hence it was, and is not; real  

2.  The edge profile would  zxip through grass but not have survived even moderate real war use. -hence it was, and is not; real

 

If we claim to be making weapons, then lets study the era and the use and make weapons. Not test cut thinga-ma-bobs

Again I have handled many Euro and Japanese weapons, yes there are some exceptions but the rule is that they are light and quick. Most of the Euro weapons were spring tempered.

 

To Brian

I am forging a spring tempered 5160 blade with my son as I agree it makes great swords, forged or ground.

 

 

So it is the goldilocks principle applied to weaponry.

To big and thick..............no good

too thin to cut grass....... no good

Well balanced with distal tapering and canard edges...just right

 

Make more sense? Man alive, I'm sorry guys I can't write for crap! ???

 

 

To J. Loose

I know, I know; sounds silly- but it truly isn't. There indeed was much testing and documentations made in several cultures. To them it was not playing and a hobby it was research in arms, or to put it plainly. Life!:D

Actually there is no need dress up and test things to kill each other like you kiddingly offered. In fact this re-creating without any martial training for the weapons use and era will avail you little or no knowledge worth having. Further this re-creating with its inherint errors can be avoided and the weapons design and attributes correctly placed by........reading and research.

I am an obsessive moron. If I make a tool or weapon, I want to make it correctly!

cheers

Guys

Dan

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I was being serious / funny.

 

The truth is, we won't know how to design things & how they will hold up to real use until there is a proper feedback mechanism... i.e., they actually get used over a period of time.  Everything else is theoretical... but then, even the 16th C. Japanese tested their swords on death-row inmates & cadavers...

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Dan, I do apologize - I indeed did not address some of what you posted, Fully. This probably still won't address all of it, But...

 

"Men bashing things in the back yard with big long handles has little to do with weapons of war as they were used in a time of war."

 

You are once again correct in that, However, I think it should also be noted that not all conflicts involving weapons (Swords in this case), happen on the battlefield, during war.  Some conflicts (mostly personal) happened in more urban "street" environments, generally with combatants wearing little to no armor. Weapons and techniques would be modified accordingly to suit this environment. The rapier is an example of this. We are seeing this happen more and more with today's armies as close quarters conflict in an urban environment becomes more and more likely.  

 

I also agree that a weapon being "too heavy" or "too light" and "sharp" is a bad thing. In most anything, a propor balance of extremes is needed, not just swords. I personally feel however, that there is no such thing as too heavy, too light, or too sharp. Only, too heavy or light or sharp, for a given task.

 

I think one reason as to why the ultra light, thin, and "sharp" blades We see today are popular, is that most people now a days, in the "modern" era of america, are physically weak. An appropriate level of physical strenght is required to fight with a given weapon well. I do feel with the right ammount of physical strenght (much more than usual), the "monster cutters" you describe can indeed be used with speed and effectivness. The dedication required to reach this level, is however, uncommon. Any weapon can be "finessed" if the being using it possesses enough strenght and special training to use it as such.

 

When you're only cutting easy targets, and are with a muscle-mass that, compared to the warrior using these weapons when they were highly prominant is quite weak, compensation makes sense. So long as they have a choice to, Most people who play with swords for leisure (Suburban White boys, as you put it) would rather just get a thinner, sharper sword, than train to overcome their own shortcomings, mental or physical. I call it the "quick fix pill" mentality, and  I hate to say it, but I see it alot.

 

I've found a great exercise to test and BUILD your skill is to cut with a dulled sword, which afterall, would simulate the dulling experianced during heavy use on the battlefield. If you can cut any given target with a sharp sword, move onto a dull one. Once you can cut that given target, easy or tough, with that dull sword-you'll know your technique is getting better.

 

And Gents, I DO indeed wish to continue this discussion, but I feel it should have a thread made all for itself. As is common with forums like this, one thread can quickly mutate and grow into another. Dan, if you would be so kind as to make it, I would gladly continue this discussion there.

I have suffered for My arts... Now it's your turn.

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