Welding Problems

[Caleb Harris]

I've been inspired by the current KITH and am wanting to join it. I just wanna make sure I can do something like a hawk before I join.

 

Anyway, so here's my problem. I'm making a tomahawk in the same style as one posted a little while ago, (it was one of the firebeard guys I'm pretty sure) and I've done everything, including wrapping it around the rod, and placing the ends together.

 

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Then I tried welding. I got the steel (5160) yellow-hot, and tried pounding it together, AKA I tried to weld it together. They do not join. I realize it's probably a variety of problems, so I just want a little list on the things I could be doing wrong.

 

P.S., I am using Borax for flux.

[Hoy's Forge]

Caleb did you grind it clean of scale ? Then flux it before its hot enough to scale(no glow) If the metal is sanded bare and no oxygen can reach it ( covered in flux) It will surprise you how easy it sticks!

[Freya W. Ward]

5160 is a steel which is very difficult to weld onto itself, I've certainly never succeeded. If it weren't for the steel, there a couple things to keep in mind which save me from a lot of headaches when making damascus.

 

Light strikes to set the weld and squeeze out the flux, and don't let the material sit on the anvil for more than a few seconds as you're consolidating. Take it out of the fire, tap it two or three times, rotate it on the anvil face, tap it a few more times, back in the fire. 3 or 4 cycles of this, striking more vigorously on each cycle. I realize that's probably overkill, but it's better safe than sorry when forge welding.

[Caleb Harris]

Caleb did you grind it clean of scale ? Then flux it before its hot enough to scale(no glow) If the metal is sanded bare and no oxygen can reach it ( covered in flux) It will surprise you how easy it sticks!

Thats my problem. Thanks!

[Geoff Keyes]

One thing you might try. 5160 resists welding to itself, as Freya said. If you can, insert a piece of 1084 (or some other carbon steel) the full length of the seam. The 5160 and 1084 will weld just fine. If you look at Alan's tutorial, he used 1018 for the body of the hawk, which is why he had to weld in a piece of hardenable stuff. Mild or wrought will self weld just fine. The chrome in the 5160 appears to be the issue. BTW, flux is not glue, It's there to keep the surfaces as clean as possible. You want just enough, but not a whole gloopy load of the stuff, it can keep the weld from happening.

 

Geoff

[Alan Longmire]

I'll third Geoff and Freya. I have never gotten 5160 to weld to itself. I've had it seem to stick, only to pop apart later, but never got a good weld that way. I have no trouble welding it to mild steel, wrought iron, or straight carbon steels.

 

One other thing for you to consider: Think about why the wrapped hawk is made the way it is. It's a historical method left over from when steel was expensive, so you used a non-hardenable metal for the body and welded in a piece of harder steel to act as the edge. Think about where the weld lines will be in that case - on either side of the edge. If you just wrap a piece of high carbon and weld that up with nothing in between, where is the weld line? It IS the edge. Not an ideal situation.

 

5160 is a great steel for axes, you just have to use a different method than the full-wrap.

 

I think I'm gonna add that paragraph above to the tutorial I'm working on...

[Sveinn Kallinen]

Great info, you guys just saved me a lot of misery as I too was about to try my hand at an axe with 5160. I realize this is maybe out of my current league but if I took 5160 and 1084, layered, then drew it out and wrapped it, would it weld then?

 

I know what i'm going to do right now, just use 1/4"-3/8" (I have "access" to either) x 2" to wrap and weld a 5160 bit in, it will help me out in the end anyway as i want alot of mass for a beard

 

I will thin the eye section down to 1.25" and where I weld it will expand to the full 2" right where my 5160 bit joins in.

[N. Runals]

All great info, one thing I'd like to add is that yellow-heat and welding temp aren't exactly the same thing. You don't want the steel sparking, you want to look for the surfaces looking wet, or somewhat liquid.

 

I've stuck 5160 before, just like Alan said ... every thing looked good. It even worked as the best carving hatchet I've ever used for about 2 years of heavy use. One day as I was chopping it stopped cutting, I looked and the weld had popped and was filled with chips. So, yeah like Alan just said wrap around, with no edge material puts the weld in a bad spot.

[Gene Bland]

A "yellow" heat is not hot enough. Make the body from 1018 or a36. Mild steel. Then weld the spring steel bit as the tutorial shows. But practice with the mild steel. When you can weld consistantly with it then go to the spring steel bit. Don't rush the weld. Let it get hot. Watch the flux but the steel needs to be the same color as the hottest part of the fire. Mild steel welds at a higher temp than carbon steel. Use plenty of flux but not too much. If it falls off it does no good. Sprinkel it on with your fingers. Don't shovel it on. Start with 1/4 square. When you can weld it every time go to 1/2. No one starts out welding tomahawks. They are not the most difficult but they can be a pain in the A. There are no short cuts. Prep is everything. Clean surfaces, good scarfs, and a HOT fire are all necessary. Good luck and have fun. Forge welding can be very frustrating, but once you learn the proper way and do it every time the process is most satisifying.

[N. Runals]

One important thing about welding is confidence... in my opinion anyway. Do yourself a favor and listen to Gene about practicing, if you really want an ego boost get yourself some wrought iron and weld that... it's like magic how easy it sticks, you don't even have to use flux.

[Caleb Harris]

And where can I get wrought Iron?

[Geoff Keyes]

Wrought iron is mostly a 19th century product. Old chain, wagon wheel tires and frame parts, old structural steel, sometimes the weights from old sash windows (though they are as often cast). The best stuff, chain usually, is pretty clean, the rest can be extremely variable, full of inclusions and slag. While it's fun to work with, and can give you some interesting damascus-like patterns, for what this thread has been talking about (welding up a hawk body) I would stick with mild steel and a tool steel bit. You can get mild anywhere and it's pretty cheap. Wrought is going to be much harder to find and more money.

 

Geoff

[Gene Bland]

Also, wrought iron welds and works at hotter temps than mild steel. Stick with modern steel until you are confident in your process. Your forge must reach 2300 degrees or you are wasting your time trying to weld. Take a wire coat hanger, straighten it out and forge a point on one end. When you think you are at weld temp stick the pointed end into the fire, bring up the heat and then touch your weldment with it. If it sticks give it another minute and then weld it. This works for both coal and gas. If the wire won't stick you are not hot enough. Soon you will be able to tell by looking at it.