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Mike Fegan

motor advice please

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its been awhile since i posted...hope everyone has been well (and hopefully busy)

 

ok...so, i am in the first stages of building a grinder and came across this link

 

http://www.dealerselectric.com/

 

it looks like they have package deals for motor and teco vfd...could anyone who knows motors take a look and let me know their opinion on the motor and vfd (teco)...and weather this would be a route worth considering...the price seems very good to me...almost too good.

 

thanks in advance.

 

-mike

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Hello Mike ,

 

I have The Teco FM50 Fluxmaster & a 2 HP 3 ph Motor by World Wide Elec Corp. on my KMG Type Grinder it is a dream and very sweet well worth the money .

 

I hope this is not considered as an advertisement . anyway my little grinder is not anywhere close to being a engineering feat however thank you for the link I shall post a photo for the contest I did not know it was going on .

 

the FM50 & this motor will run at .01 Hz= roughfly 250 belt ft per min to 60 Hz at roughfly 20,000 belt ft per min as per my calculations I have the exacts in the shop in sets of tens .

 

Sam

 

Sam

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I use that VFD with a 1 hp Baldor motor. You will need to make a dust proof enclosure for the VFD. I use a clear storage box from Walmart with small holes covered by filter material. Has worked fine for over a year. When I need more power I will use the 1 hp for a disk grinder.

 

This one is the closest to what I got. Remember you can not plug one of these into a GFCI outlet.

 

http://dealerselectric.com/item.asp?PID=6904

 

If you need photo of VFD enclosure let me know and I will post one as soon as I get back from my road trip.

Edited by GBrackett

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Here is My finished KMG Type Grinder with the dust proof enclosure for the VFD ***Note the Green Filter at the bottom to be installed .

 

 

5 photos here :

 

http://imgur.com/BSMnVIc,Untvt0L,9Bv4Inb,e9gBa9M,TRNNnj2

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thanks everyone for the replies...

 

George...when you get a chance (no hurry) if you feel like posting a picture of your enclosure, that would be appreciated...

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thats a nice grinder Sam...what is that filter you are using?

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Sam,

 

If you dont mind mail me a copy of your plans for that.....

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2x72Ginder-V01.jpg

 

Found this on my phone. I have added hinges to the box, and a remote control that allows me to reverse and control the speed at the front of the grinder. The box cost me $5.

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thanks George...so, the box looks easy (and inexpensive enough)...i think ill contact the website and see if they offer the package (vfd + 3ph motor) in a 1.5 hp option...that is, unless someone else knows of a place offering something comparable for a btter price, but so far that was the best deal i have been able to locate...

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sine we are on the subject of motors and power and all that...looking at my breaker box, it seems as if i only have 120/240 volt...would it be worth looking into running a separate 230 volt line?

Edited by Mike Fegan

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George, are those skateboard wheels on your grinder??

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sine we are on the subject of motors and power and all that...looking at my breaker box, it seems as if i only have 120/240 volt...would it be worth looking into running a separate 230 volt line?

Yes! Even if you stick with a single speed motor and no VFD running it on a dedicated 230 line will increase power and use less amps. Also, you can run up to a 3hp VFD off 230, whereas you are limited to 1.5hp on 115.

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Looks like it. I bought this from 2x72beltgrinder.com, Jose has a low end starter grinder at a very nice price point. He has changed it since to actual wheels and has improved it quite a bit in the last 7 months or so. He always is quick to help if you need it. I also have a small adapter unit for it. The newer one is really nice looking. When I started I had no grinder and was not sure I would continue doing this. Now I'm build a shop and moving from the porch. I'm also in the middle of a mini forging press project. Once the shop is ready I will be looking to buy my second grinder. A TW90 with a surface grinding attachment. I used the TW90 at an ABS class and was extremely impressed.

 

I enjoy my pheer grinder and will keep it as a backup.

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Yes! Even if you stick with a single speed motor and no VFD running it on a dedicated 230 line will increase power and use less amps. Also, you can run up to a 3hp VFD off 230, whereas you are limited to 1.5hp on 115.

 

As always...thank you Alan for your input...dont suppose you know about things like running a dedicated 230vac line do you? i guess i will need to take the face off the fuse box to see what is going on in there before anything else...this is an old house built right around 1900...so who knows...it has obviously been updated since then...ill find out what im starting with, and if anyone who has electrical knowledge cares to guide me, or atleast tell me what i am up against as far as cost and all that, that would be very awesome...

 

 

A WARNING TO PEOPLE WANTING TO GET INTO KNIFEMAKING/SMITHING: this all started out as a trip to home depot for some crappy files...after it gets into your blood and you are hooked, you will find yourself on an internet forum asking people questions about motors, vfd's, and how to run a dedicated power line...so beware...there is no turning back once you have stepped onto this yellow brick road.

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The first thing to do is see what size service you have. If it's breakers that would be the one that turns everything off by putting it in the off position. Knowing the size of that one will tell you how much capacity you have. Your panel could be fuses then you would look at the tube type fuse to see there size. In both cases the one you are looking for may be marked main. If you have a dryer you could run the grinder from that outlet also.

 

If you have a 150 or 200 amp service you may be able to add a circuit to it. You would need to have two spaces in the panel. Once you have that PM me and I will send you instructions. Cost will vary based on manufacturer of the panel and the distance of the run. I hate to admit it, but I grew up in the family electrical contracting business and a long, long time ago was a state licensed electrical contractor. I guess that has been helpful over the years.

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Unfortunately, many people think that 230v uses less power and gives more power.

a 1 hp motor is a 1 hp motor no matter what the power source.

230v does run at lower amperage.

Say the 1 hp motor at 115v is drawing 15 amps and

at 230v draws 7 amps people think that it is using less than half as much electricity.

Actually 230v is using two legs of electricity so you have 7 amps times 2 which equals 14 total amps, so you are saving 1 amp.

 

Now the 115v power into the VFD is output to the motor as 230v 3 phase.

 

The problem with enclosing a non NEMA 4X (dust proof) VFD is that the VFD needs air circulation to keep it cool. If you put it in an enclosure the enclosure needs to be large enough and have a fan to boost the amount of air circulating and that air needs to be filtered.

 

Lastly, I believe that a 1 1/2 hp motor is minimum for a 2 X 72 belt grinder but I do believe that 1 1/2 hp is large enough. I carry my 1 1/2 hp grinder to conferences and meetings and challenge people to bog it down.

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George and Wayne...thank you both very much for the information...after Wayne's post, now im not sure it is worth the cost and trouble to run a seperate line if the diff is going to be that small...let me get my mind organized and wrapped around all of this and see what i have to start with...

 

George, i may be sending you a pm with some pics if that would help...

 

again, thank you guys very much for all the info and help.

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I agree that 1.5 hp is standard for grinders. I have yet to bog mine down. I let the grinder do the work. In my case I forge to between 90 to 95 percent and grind much less than stock removal does. I have mine connected to 110v. I ran a separate circuit for it and used a 20 amp breaker with #12 copper wire and ran a direct to the panel ground wire also. The VFD you are looking at has a built in fan. That's why I drilled the small holes in the back of the storage bin and added the filter. The photo from my phone was a in progress shot before I completed the project. The bin has a cubic foot of volume and really doesn't need the fan. I have helped several folks with this install before.

 

Photos would help. When you send the PM I will give you my cell phone number.

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Okay, maybe the power as measured isn't more, BUT I could easily bog down my 1hp motor on 115v, and I can't on 230v. Thus I perceive it as having more power.

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There is no difference in theory. The actual difference will depend on the particular circuit and the particular motor involved. In my case I have notice an improvement on 220v before. 220v tends to have less voltage loss during peak demand, so you might notice faster startup and faster recovery from bogging, but if your 110v circuit is dedicated to your equipment and is up to par, you might not notice a difference at all. 220v drawing less amps lets you use a smaller wire size, and less amps with the correct wire size means less heat for the conductors resulting in less stress on the motor. The minimum wire size I use is #12 copper. In my current porch shop I use 110v because the setup is temporary.

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Mike ,

 

it is a simple lawn mower filter that is installed laying inside the housing of the VFD on the bottom where I drilled a bunch of holes in a 4x4 square maybe a little bigger, the holes are 1/4 in and the air draws from the bottom and up and out the slots on each side that are cut at a 45 degree angle and they too are about 1/4 in wide this will keep my VFD cool with out getting the controller full of dust and crud.

 

WH,

 

Pm me with your Addy and I will get it to you Stan (Trying-it) is wanting it also . with my Brother's passing it will be a few days before things are back to normal and I can send them out . Mom is having a hard time right now . However I will Send them to you here in a few days .

 

Now as for the 220V Dedicated Line to the Shop not only Yes but Dagum YES ! you may only run one piece of equipment at a time However I run my shop lights, Bench LED lights, AC, Stereo, and charge Batteries for other tools . let me tell you up front Building a KMG Type Grinder is NOT for the weak at heart or weak in the wallet ! <Grins>

 

I made a ton of Little changes to the prints that I have posted many times as they were NOT correct or completely workable for a finished unit . I am building a website and plan on making them available to folks in a word and or PDF file when the site is up and running . However a few folks have already asked for them so I will send them to those folks in a hard copy . My KMG Type Grinder total cost is Just under $2400,00 as it is shown in the photos Less the belts of course . ( I ordered about $200.00 worth of belts (3MTrizact) and a rubber block cleaner )

 

There is No way that I am going to risk a poorly run line or over loaded circuit and Fry my Grinder Just Run a New line and save your self the heart break and many tears if you fry it due to lack of properly run 220V line if that is what your Grinder uses .

 

Sam

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There is no difference in theory. The actual difference will depend on the particular circuit and the particular motor involved. In my case I have notice an improvement on 220v before. 220v tends to have less voltage loss during peak demand, so you might notice faster startup and faster recovery from bogging, but if your 110v circuit is dedicated to your equipment and is up to par, you might not notice a difference at all. 220v drawing less amps lets you use a smaller wire size, and less amps with the correct wire size means less heat for the conductors resulting in less stress on the motor. The minimum wire size I use is #12 copper. In my current porch shop I use 110v because the setup is temporary.

 

Thanks, George. Thinking about it now, the 110 line was not a dedicated circuit, it was wired in parallel with all the other outlets in the garage. I rarely run much in the way of big-draw electrics when I'm grinding, but there is a fridge in there that probably sucks the juice.

 

I first ran the 220 when I got my power hammer, since it had a 2hp 220 motor. It later occurred to me it might benefit the grinder, mostly because if I did have all the lights on and the A/C in the house was running I could notice the lights dimming when I hit the switch. Upgraded the main house panel to 400 amps and the garage subpanel to 200, then ran the dedicated 220 to the grinder ( all copper 10/3) and now nothing even hiccups. So really, all I did was get cleaner electricity! :lol: It's an old house, the panel that got replaced was a 100amp fused (!) main. Tore out all the old fabric insulated wiring spliced with duct tape and replaced with properly sized Romex and actual junction boxes. Amazing how much better everything worked after that, really... :rolleyes: And no, having a better-running grinder was not the reason we replaced the wiring, but I'm not complaining!

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Alan that's a service. When I upgraded mine I went from a 60 amp Main to 200 and it really made a difference. I wish I had your fore sight and would have made mine bigger. I just used an Amprobe and tested my service, my max running load is 80 amps and as best we could measure 120 amps on start up. I am setting up a new shop and I plan to have 3 220v circuits and 6 110v ones in there. I normally work alone, but on weekends I will get a couple of other maker friends over so we might run more than one item at a time.

 

Changing things for the better is NEVER for what I need at the house. All good ideas belong to the WIFE and Thank God she's really smart. Beside she married me when she was ready!

Edited by GBrackett

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