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Guest MPerks89

Another Brilliant Idea!

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Guest MPerks89

I don't know if any of you are chemists, but if you are, consider the following reaction which I happened upon in my chem. textbook:

 

Fe2O3 + Al(s) --> Al2O3 + Fe(l)

 

Basically, if you heated up scale and mixed it aluminum shavings (at around 2000 degrees), it would remove the oxygen from the scale, reverting it back into pure iron. Not only will it get rid of the scale, but it will also melt the iron, as the reaction approaches 5300 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Would this work as a potential flux? It seems like it would not only get rid of the scale, it would even liquify the surface iron to promote a better weld, and stay hot for a considerable amount of time, so that there would be longer hammering time.

 

Of course you'd have to include an incendiary (probably a sulfar compound) to get the flux up to 2000 degrees in the first place, but I think it would work very very well.

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It used to be used, back in the day, to weld huge bridge sections together (and other such very very large steel structures).

 

Other than saying you've done it- why do it? 5300 deg F is HOT! What do you propose to contain it in? I'd be afraid that it would vaporize the steel I'm working with, or otherwise drive off all the goodies in the steel that I want there (carbon, for example can be driven off in regular forge temps).

Edited by engineerboy

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Just to make it more interesting, if you get the proportions wrong it can ignite explosively. :o

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Lord, this art is dangerous enough as it is without borrowing trouble! :o

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i think ill stick with thermite being used to destroy things i dont want people to have. its the only use for it really, well your teenage son will find many more but i digress

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gentlemen, what you are talking about is Thermit.... Not Thermite... I think it's very important to make a distinction.

Thermit has a slow burn rate and is a very old welding compound.... thermite is the explosive and not all that closely related.

 

There is a guy working on the the thermit reaction in a quest to produce steel, and going about it very carefully and systematically, and I'm excited about seeing what results he gets, it could prove, at the very least, to be very enlightening.

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Ahh... Jerry? I hope he does come up with good results :)

 

Thanks for the correction :)

23921[/snapback]

 

Hi Randall and Jesse.

 

So far, so good. I'm taking some advice, and ball milling my black sand. It worked VERY well. I had trouble ignighting it the first time, because the magnetite, (black sand), was too coarse.

 

I'm working on fabing a ceramic lined, steel reaction crucible. I have my mold crucicble, and alloying chemicals. All I need is to line the big one, and wait for dryer weather. I'll let you know. Jerry

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It used to be used, back in the day, to weld huge bridge sections together (and other such very very large steel structures).

 

Other than saying you've done it- why do it?  5300 deg F is HOT!  What do you propose to contain it in?  I'd be afraid that it would vaporize the steel I'm working with, or otherwise drive off all the goodies in the steel that I want there (carbon, for example can be driven off in regular forge temps).

23740[/snapback]

 

Howdy enineerboy.

Randall can answer this also; typicly, what was the ratio of slag to iron? How heavy was a typical charge? I've talked with someone who has used black sand, and said that about 40%, (by weight), ended up as 98.5% pure iron.

 

The heat question: The rail road boys reccomend putting scrap steel in the reaction crucible to cool things down a bit. My process will have a fair amount of ferro alloying chemicals in a mold crucible, including some solid nickle balls. That should cool it enough so the refractory can hold out for a few minutes, for all the chemicals to uptake in the melt. There is plenty of slag to seal up the top from air.

 

I have some big ceramic magnets for stirring and to prevent voids and inclusions.

When I'm done, hopefully I'll have about a 4 pound ingot of my own custom alloy. Jerry

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Take plenty of pictures please. This sounds interesting.

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Mamaster-Carr has some 5000f cement, I wonder if that would work......

23992[/snapback]

 

Hi Jesse. Should have signed up here a long time ago.

 

The cement should work. Is there any Si carbide in it? I'm linning everything with ITC-100, several layers. Itc melts at 5000. All I need it for, is about 3 to 5 minutes. The rail road guys use thier crucibles about 10 to 12 times before they reline the whole thing. At those temps, you cant avoid some melted refractory in the ingot. Hopefull the magnetic stirring will send all the slag to the top without entrapping any crap. That's the plan any how. Jerry

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I really don't know if that's in it or not... Are you thinking that it would alloy with your charge?

 

So you did get it to work so far?

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I really don't know if that's in it or not... Are you thinking that it would alloy with your charge?

 

So you did get it to work so far?

24015[/snapback]

 

I'm on a learning curve with using thermit for bolth the heat source, and the iron sorce at the same time. the first try was a total dud. i had 3 ounces of pure magnesium in molten state, and that was not enough to ignite it. BTW, I had a puddle of molten mag, in the middle of my charge. never take what you read in the books as gospel. The mag didn't oxidize, (burn), very easily.

 

Anyway, I'm a real control freak when it comes to carbon. I have been told that Si carbide, can contribute several points of C in the melt. That's why I asked. Other than that, there is not much that steel can absorb from refractory other than aluminum in the form of Alo2.

 

Just for info, I shooting for basically 4350 modified. Jerry

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I have an idea and would like feed back, especially from Randall.

 

I am going to do a small test run very soon, without the alloying chemicals. That gave me an idea.

The original plan was to do 1 run to make a 4 pound ingot of steel. That means a charge of about 10 pounds of black sand, with an equal volume of aluminum. Remember this stuff gets 5500 F. That is one big thermal mass to deal with. Let's say I brake it up into 2 or 3 runs. Put the ferro chemicals in the mold for the first run, they take up in the iron and then measure the carbon uptake. Put the result back in the mold, and make up the difference with a second, or maybe a third run? It's still plenty hot to melt anything in the mold crucible, even though the charge is not as big.

 

What do you say? Will I still get a homogenous ingot, or a bunch of segregations? Thanks, Jerry

 

P.S. I still plan on using the magnets for stirring.

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Its been awhile since I played with this stuff but I used red iron oxide. Black sand might not work. The Alum. is converting the oxide to the pure form. Also to ignite the thermite I suggest a starter such as finely powdered feO and alum as a core. Center this mass and ignite this with Mg ribbon. Your alum. has to be very fine and the same particle size as the rust. I suggest using pyro grade Alum but not as fine as german blackhead.

 

When I was much younger my friends and I had alot of dangerous fun with stuff like this. We had a blast flushing down marble sized chunks of Sodium metal wrapped in toilet paper down the school toilets.

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Guest TimCrocker

I can pretty much absorb how you get carbon in the steel when making it with charcoal and black sand. But how do you infuse it when using the thermite method?

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I can pretty much absorb how you get carbon in the steel when making it with charcoal and black sand. But how do you infuse it when using the thermite method?

25033[/snapback]

 

The rail road guys put scrap/cast iron in the reaction crucible. This cools down the charge a little, and adds carbon to the melt.

 

I plan on making a mini run, and carburize the heck out of the resulting buttons, and add it to the real run, along with a little scrap of the alloy I am after.

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I plan on making a mini run, and carburize the heck out of the resulting buttons, and add it to the real run, along with a little scrap of the alloy I am after.

 

Any chance you might make some 4350-mod or 4370-mod available for sale in bar form for stock removers? :)

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Any chance you might make some 4350-mod or 4370-mod available for sale in bar form for stock removers? :)

25269[/snapback]

 

 

Hi Thom.

That's about what alloy I'm shooting for. I'll try and not go over 50 points of carbon, so I can be assured of lath Mn formation. If it works out, I might up the carbon for knife stock.

 

As far as selling, no plans for that but I like to share with friends. :D Like I said, IF, (big if), it works out, I will see what I can do. Jerry

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