Dave Stephens Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 All: This may be a stupid question. I'm planning my next project (a Scottish Dirk), and am having a hard time determining from photos/drawings of artifacts if the profile of the early 17th century dirk blades were symmetrical, or of a subtle "drop point" profile you might see on a longsax, for example. I've imported photos into illustrator to attempt to measure this, but the subtle differences between the blade profile edges could be attributed to either the angle of the camera taking the photo or craftsmanship issues. Likewise, illustrations that show some lopsidedness could just be from the fact that they seem to be hand drawn illustrations. Also complicating the problem are the fullers that appear on one side of these blades, which causes the eye to see it as more lopsided than it really is. Thanks for any advice! Dave Example of the type of blade shape in which I'm interested: -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis mcadams Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Dave, This will be a project I want to see progress, good choice. Any of the few actual artifacts I've gotten to see but not handle sadly are dead straight from pommel nut to point. That is, as far as I could tell. Based on my somewhat limited experience the caveat for this type of blade is that quenching a single edged and fullered on one side blade can make it want to drop the point if vertically quenched in oil unless you happen to be Jesvs H. Or maybe at best do something else a bit crazy as the shape is so different from side to side. That being said I would do an image search for Vince Evans since he has done a lot of them and to my knowledge can come as close to any for historical dimensions. Good luck. Denis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake cleland Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 basically the Platonic Ideal for these is dead straight and symmetrical, but I have seen them with both positive and negative sori from the quench. in general i leave them about 1/4" - 1/2" longer than i want them to end up and re-shape the profile a bit after quench. also remember that these are very thick; at least 7mm, and up to about 11mm, and don't usually have a full distal taper, but more like 50-70% taper... Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEzell Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Just food for thought... I don't think the makers obsessed very much about keeping them perfectly symmetrical. I personally like just a bit of asymmetry to them, the kind you have to really look for to notice, similar to the hint of curves in a good type 4 seax.. It gives them a bit of organic life as opposed to the sterile unnatural perfection of perfect symmetry. In other words, eyeball it... Edited March 7, 2014 by GEzell George Ezell, bladesmith" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."Buffonview some of my work RelicForge on facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 Thanks guys! -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Gdula Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 One more question on this topic... I'm researching them also, and I can't find anything written, but the pictures seem to show a full convex grind. Anyone have input on that? www.toddblades.com "Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake cleland Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Todd, from what I've seen, most early dirks would be better categorised as full flat grinds with slightly convex edges - the full convex grind comes in with the 19th century and the thinner spearpoint blades often misconstrued as cut down swords (while some were certainly made from swords in this period, it was definitely not the norm) Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Gdula Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Todd, from what I've seen, most early dirks would be better categorised as full flat grinds with slightly convex edges - the full convex grind comes in with the 19th century and the thinner spearpoint blades often misconstrued as cut down swords (while some were certainly made from swords in this period, it was definitely not the norm) Thanks, Jake! www.toddblades.com "Geometry says how sharp, steel says how long." - Roman Landes, Ashokan 2009 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Colwell Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 good info everyone. nice to learn these things. good luck, Dave. Vince does have a good photo spread of how he and his wife make and carve the hilt on one of these on his site. kc please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/ “Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Rose Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) This may help - info on Dirks from John Wallace's book on Scottish dirks and swords http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/dirks-page1.html Edited March 26, 2014 by Wild Rose Chuck Burrows Wild Rose Trading Co chuck@wrtcleather.com www.wrtcleather.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEzell Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 This may help - info on Dirks from John Wallace's book on Scottish dirks and swords http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/dirk-book/dirks-page1.html Thank you so much for that! George Ezell, bladesmith" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."Buffonview some of my work RelicForge on facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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