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This is an extension of this thread: http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=30400&page=2#entry293630

 

Basically I am making my first Gyoto (Or Santoku...) in San-Mai because I just could not get over how badly I wanted to forge a San-Mai like Kiyoshi Kato. This is a Mild-W2-Mild.

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Edited by Daniel Cauble
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Yea it kind of does look santoku'ish. These japanese blades are difficult to profile in comparison to other shapes. But I love a challenge.

 

I wanted a larger multi-task slicing blade like a gyoto. If I plan on thinning it out it would have to be a gyoto. Santoku's from my experience are thicker at the spine.

 

Would you suggest a narrower profile to be full gyoto?

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Actually you know what? Now that you mention Santoku...I am having problems with the mild jacket steel thinning out. Due to this, a santoku may be more well suited, not to mention it is already thick. I may have to set this down and decide on things, lol.

 

EDIT: After viewing my japanese kitchen knife charts, this will have to be a Santoku. Simply not long enough at the very least. Arg. Ah well.

Edited by Daniel Cauble
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Santoku can be as thin as a gyuto. It's more of a profile difference than anything else. What part of the profiling is giving you trouble? Is it difficult because of the san mai?? Working in monosteel, they're pretty basic.

 

If it were mine to do...

 

...and I wanted a gyuto out of it, I'd hammer the edge up until it matched the heel (there should be a less than 1mm upsweep from about 1cm from the heel, no more), then profile it all out again. I would bring the tang up until it followed the line of the spine (it should rise at an angle to the board). From there, draw out the length to the tip by alternating hammering the spine and edge, thinning as you go. Most Japanese blades (santoku included), have a long flat, with about 1/4-1/3 of the edge rising to meet a lowish point. Very little belly!

 

I'm more than happy to watch this one come along...but if you need any more advice on these things I'm more than happy to help...this is pretty much my main customer base :).

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Thanks Chris, it means a ton. Your blade work is some of my favorite, and japanese kitchen knives are my favorite to look at.

 

Btw, I have this site to kind of go off on: http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml

 

Do you have any resources that may give parameters such as the ones you stated to go by in the future? Most of my forge work here was by memory, as my phone was dead and I have never made one before. I stopped kind of thick for this reason to allow me to make additions if needed.

Edited by Daniel Cauble
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It's Cris :). I don't mind btw...but I wanted to catch you so you didn't feel silly when you realized you'd been calling me by the wrong name for however long, lol.

 

That's a good site to go by. Many times knives blur the lines. For example, I make a ko-gyuto. Basically a santoku length gyuto (180mm), full heel height (50mm/2"). It's a popular knife. I also make a 'gyuto-hiki'...which is a short heeled (30mm-40mm) slicing knife, but with a more gyuto'ish' edge length/profile (210mm+) and tapering spine profile. A lot of guys love them.

 

In my experience, a gyuto is defined by being sort of a mix of Japanese and western knives. They have the long flat edge of the Japanese knives, and the taper to the tip of a western. This gives them a different sort of utility that is unique to them. There are gyuto that have a semi sharp 'santoku' like turn at the nose, but they've already tapered quite a bit before then. I think of that as a sort of 'bull nose' profile. Others have profile taper that is more even and sleek. This to me is a bit more typical. In general a gyuto would be over 210mm (excepting bastardized versions like mine!), and would incorporate a full height heel of 50mm/2" or greater, with the long even taper to the tip. The tang thing is just sense for push cutting and board clearance.

If you look at these, you'll kind of get the idea:

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The kitchen knives from left to right are a sujihiki (it has a very tall heel height for a suji, but I correct that with grinding most often after heat treat), gyuto, ko-gyuto, and petty/utility. Then an o-tanto (or ko-wakizashi lol), and two more fatter profile gyuto. My heel/choil transition (the long sweeping curve) is NOT TYPICAL. Most chefs love the look of it, but often think they won't like to use it...until they do, then they love to use it too lol. Your knives will be more popular more quickly with a more squared off heel/choil. I've fought bias against my chosen shape since day 1...but it sort of defines my knives now, as I intended.

 

Anyhow, if you compare yours to mine, you'll see the difference, and what makes yours more of a fatter bellied santoku profile.

I hope that makes sense!

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It does Chris. Apologies, i swear i saw someone call you Carl the other day. Apologies big time.

 

My curved heel is a result of a slight delamination in a BAD spot. Didnt want to risk burning off the tang in the process so i simply ground a little off and it worked. My aim was to weld at the lowest temp possible in the beginning. I achieved this minus that little spot. I may square it up yet.

 

Btw that Usuba from a few threads down got messed up. I Stupidly placed it on the metal tray in my little tempering toaster oven. Normally this is ok, but 400F is a little tricky with it plus the blade was alreafy ultra thin. It ended up cunducting too much heat from the elements and tempered to like 550F. Brass rod test left dents.

 

Appreciate the input Chris.

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Aha! Knew I read it somewhere lol.

 

An update. I thinned it out some and stretched it a tiny bit. Had to re-weld a delam or two along the edge which frustrated me to no end. So I ground the profile more, thinned out the edge more, ground it off, thinned, and ground off some more. Im dancing around 1/8" at the edge, and I don't see me getting it any thinner. Fixed the tang as well I believe. I will also grind the heel out a little more to lengthen (widen) it. I was just too exhausted, and thunderstorms are rolling in, and don't like the KMG plugged in during storms (Or when im not using it). EDIT: Going back for Gyoto btw.

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Edited by Daniel Cauble
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Well that's it for this WIP. Learned a lesson here. I had the temp just a slight bit too high. I had read this thread: http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18632

 

And have identical break, and realization of problem. I read it before HT, so I tried my best to keep temp low and let it soak for a few minutes. May have reached 1600F or so, which is far above what W2 calls for. Should have let it cool slightly...

 

Quenched in warm 120F soapy water for 4 seconds and then placed in room temp canola oil. Usually my interrupt is warmed oil, but it was an afterthought of caution at the last minute. Once I saw the crack form on the edge and the spine, I decided to take advantage of the situation and check my grain by placing a chisel in the crack and prying it open till it popped more and I peeled away the laminate. Its really small and uniform. 3 normalization cycles and the Vanadium retarding grain growth, lead to some nice grain. Looked at it under 60 and 100x magnification. Looks nice. Wish it survived though. A lot of work, but a lot of fun.

 

I may make a few monosteel W2 gyotos to get the shape down, and since I havent HT'd W2 all too much (Just W1 and 1095), I will get a little more acquainted that way. After watching Kiyoshi Kato forge the San Mai Gyoto, I just could not get a test run out of my mind. Almost made it too. At least for now the thirst has been quenched for a short bit. But not for long.

 

At least I learned from it.

 

EDIT: Was happy to note that the break was no a delamination. It was just the W2, and I had more laminate there than I had feared. So, easily fixed mistake in the future, and my welds are holding nicely.

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Edited by Daniel Cauble
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