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C.Anderson

Broadheads?

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I'm considering making my own broadheads this year. They will mount to an existing ferrule which will screw into my carbon arrows. I'm fully capable of the forge/grinder work, but I'm wondering if any of you have any tips or tricks that may ease the process? Also, most broadheads you find online are in the 48-52HRC range. Do any of you have any experience with differing levels of hardness in your own broadheads? Obviously too hard wouldn't be very bright...but with a good .070" thick blade, I'd think there would be plenty of support for as much as 58HRC on the edge for a single bevel, doule edged blade.

Anyhow...any information you all have would be helpful. I thoroughly enjoy tailoring my hobbies to my own very personal tastes...and this seems a perfect way to go about it.

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I'm looking at doing something like these...only unvented, and without the bleeders:

 

Broadheads.jpg

 

I've found single bevels to be devastating to game, and would probably be using these existing ferrules to adapt my blades to the arrows.

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I've made many of my own arrows shafts & fletchings but have never made the broadheads so my hats off to you. Though with todays modern bows it's not as critical as it was in my days of self-bow hunting, a good rule-of-thumb to remember is the sharper the edge-the better the bleeding. My experience was with a fifty pound self bow which is soooo different than todays bows that you can take this for whatever it's worth.

 

I would think that with most 10xx steels that you would want an optimum 58Rc. This should be tough enough to pass through bone without chipping and still give you the edge that you want. Just think of them as a knife blade and you should be good-to-go.

 

All my best,

Gary

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I've made many of my own arrows shafts & fletchings but have never made the broadheads so my hats off to you. Though with todays modern bows it's not as critical as it was in my days of self-bow hunting, a good rule-of-thumb to remember is the sharper the edge-the better the bleeding. My experience was with a fifty pound self bow which is soooo different than todays bows that you can take this for whatever it's worth.

 

I would think that with most 10xx steels that you would want an optimum 58Rc. This should be tough enough to pass through bone without chipping and still give you the edge that you want. Just think of them as a knife blade and you should be good-to-go.

 

All my best,

Gary

 

Good to know Gary! In a way, broadhead spin and weight is even more critical out of a 300fps + bow. Yes, there's more power to propel it, but the spine of the arrow has to be dead on because of that...and arrow flight can differ greatly with any change in profile or thickness. Slower bows are more forgiving of arrow flight in many ways, due to the lesser amount of resistance to forward motion. I'm shooting for +/- 1g on my heads...and will have a precise template for profile.

 

As for the bows now though, you're 150% correct! My bow now will put a 350g arrow out at around 300fps...and the new bow I'm buying here in the next few months will do 325-335fps with the same arrow. That's at a 27" draw length!! A 400g arrow will move at over 300fps, and a 500g arrow will still be over 275fps. Anymore, crazy heavy arrows are unnecessary, and actually hurt accuracy compared to the lighter ones due to the lesser amount of forgiveness when it comes to judging yardage. Drop with a 350g arrow from 20-30yds is less than an inch. 20-40yds a bit over an inch. 40-50yds would put you right at 2" drop. You can pretty much use a single pin within 60yds, and just aim a bit high on the kill zone. It's pretty crazy...and SO different than traditional bows!

 

I was thinking of clay hardening them (because it's me lol), and going with 1095 or W2. I still have boatloads of 1060 laying around too, which could actually be pretty much optimal for this kind of thing. Very tough body with decent edge hardness. A good blue temper and away we go.

 

If I go forward with this...I'll be sure to post my results :).

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Looks Awesome! I shoot both traditional and compound. My only question would be the weight/grain of the broadhead itself. It really needs to match the spine weight of the arrow for best performance. Of course...after reading your latest post I'm sure you know this already. I'll be following this. I'd like to make my own someday for my traditional bow. I've seen youtube videos of it being done for traditional bows...none for compounds though. Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

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Something that you will need to take into account that I didn't would be air resistance to spin. The more that you can reduce the resistance by creating less surface within the blade, the more you will see repeatable results.

 

Good luck.

 

Gary

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Looks Awesome! I shoot both traditional and compound. My only question would be the weight/grain of the broadhead itself. It really needs to match the spine weight of the arrow for best performance. Of course...after reading your latest post I'm sure you know this already. I'll be following this. I'd like to make my own someday for my traditional bow. I've seen youtube videos of it being done for traditional bows...none for compounds though. Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

 

I'm shooting for 150-160g. This allows me to use a 40-50g outsert to put me right on the nose at 200g on the head. Overall arrow weight should be 355g, with a 26" ATA length (nock to outsert), totaling a 27.5" overall length. FOC will be right around 25%, which should help arrow flight and penetration tremendously. I tune my compounds very tightly. Centershot is centershot, and my bare shafts group with my broadheads and field points up to 60yds. Here's a couple pictures illustrating my arrow/bow build...the spine requirements (300 spine), and the actual spine of my chosen arrow:

 

XcentricLightSpecs.jpg

This page show the bow, chosen draw length, chosen draw weight, FOC, Kinetic Energy, arrow weight and velocity with the given bow, arrow length, and accessories, sight info, and

various other things.

 

XcentricLightSpine.jpg

This page shows the actual spine of my arrow, and how it's affected by both the given head, and given nock/vanes (weight on the front weakens the effective spine, weight on the rear stiffens the effective spine). This arrow is a static .325 spine...but with the weight I have on the front and rear, it acts like a .300 spine. I like my arrows just a slight bit soft on the spine compared to the bow...as they seem to paper tune, and walk back tune the best.

 

Something that you will need to take into account that I didn't would be air resistance to spin. The more that you can reduce the resistance by creating less surface within the blade, the more you will see repeatable results.

 

Good luck.

 

Gary

 

Oh absolutely! I run a 6° right hand helical on my 1.87" long .385 high vanes. The cool thing about single bevel broadheads is that they also help induce spin while in flight. I've seen tests where a solid body single bevel was compared in a wind tunnel with a vented body double bevel, and the single bevel spun substantially faster. The high front of center percentage of the arrow just adds to it...the vanes are almost just along for the ride :).

Edited by C.Anderson

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If you are only hunting deer-sized game, those broadheads will be OK...having been a bowhunter for nearly 45 years now taking my fair share of animals - its my opinion that blade shape is not conducive to penetration. It is entirely too abrupt an angle for any contact with bone especially on elk, moose, caribou, or bears as well as feral hogs.

 

Remember please you are dealing with a living creature, and consideration for that fact urges one to exercise extreme care in the design and planning of the most important component in a bow kill, so that when a less than perfect hit happens you have given yourself the best possible chance for recovery- and that means a great blood trail...and those only come when you have two holes. A field point will kill on a perfect shot- but a marginal hit requires greater efficiency.

 

I have used 58 RC single bevel broadheads for the last 20 years called Grizzlies...designed by Harry Elburg. My friend Ed Ashby has performed exhaustive research on animal carcasses in Africa to test penetration- called the Natal Study. The Grizzly was the only head that did not fail during those trials, which were over several years and thousands of test shots with both modular and fixed heads of all makes. The grizzly is a 3 to 1 ratio head, meaning it's 3 times as long as it is wide.

 

Also KE is not the most important measurement for efficiency- it's momentum. That's going to be a bigger friend than kinetic energy. And that's why a heavier arrow will always outpenetrate a lighter one given everything else being equal.

 

In addition the single bevel provides an advantage on bone hits, cracking and splitting bone rather than just 'sticking' in, which can also be a big advantage. Additionally, if you will attempt to maximize the FOC of your arrows by adding significant tip weight to what I assume will be carbon arrows, you'll see greater momentum and penetration efficiencies as a result. Good luck

Edited by Ray Hammond

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Uncle Ted Nugent Has worked on a many Broadhead design from stubby to long ones and he has a line of them out with every thing in between brother . I like the Stubby just remember KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) NOT calling you that by no means either ! saying don't get wrapped up in over thinking the project and you will do an awesome job with them just like you do with your Knives .

 

Good Luck and keep us posted Brother Chris.

 

Blessings & Best Regards

 

Ret, Sgt. Robert Yates

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If you are only hunting deer-sized game, those broadheads will be OK...having been a bowhunter for nearly 45 years now taking my fair share of animals - its my opinion that blade shape is not conducive to penetration. It is entirely too abrupt an angle for any contact with bone especially on elk, moose, caribou, or bears as well as feral hogs.

 

Remember please you are dealing with a living creature, and consideration for that fact urges one to exercise extreme care in the design and planning of the most important component in a bow kill, so that when a less than perfect hit happens you have given yourself the best possible chance for recovery- and that means a great blood trail...and those only come when you have two holes. A field point will kill on a perfect shot- but a marginal hit requires greater efficiency.

 

I have used 58 RC single bevel broadheads for the last 20 years called Grizzlies...designed by Harry Elburg. My friend Ed Ashby has performed exhaustive research on animal carcasses in Africa to test penetration- called the Natal Study. The Grizzly was the only head that did not fail during those trials, which were over several years and thousands of test shots with both modular and fixed heads of all makes. The grizzly is a 3 to 1 ratio head, meaning it's 3 times as long as it is wide.

 

Also KE is not the most important measurement for efficiency- it's momentum. That's going to be a bigger friend than kinetic energy. And that's why a heavier arrow will always outpenetrate a lighter one given everything else being equal.

 

In addition the single bevel provides an advantage on bone hits, cracking and splitting bone rather than just 'sticking' in, which can also be a big advantage. Additionally, if you will attempt to maximize the FOC of your arrows by adding significant tip weight to what I assume will be carbon arrows, you'll see greater momentum and penetration efficiencies as a result. Good luck

 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom! I actually prefer the idea of a heavier arrow, though not quite one that's up to Dr. Ashby's 600g specification. The above lightweight arrow listed also has 25% FOC, which is a good bit higher than most setups I see. If I were to utilize the same setup on my 436g arrows, the FOC drops to 21%...which I think is still respectable. I had also planned on increasing the length to width ratio some as well...again, possibly not as high as 3:1...but surely close. That's one of the reasons I'm doing this. The ferrule on those blades will hold my replacements nicely, and make adapting them to my arrows much easier.

 

All of that said, the 355g arrow I posted above has a velocity of 305fps at 40yds, a momentum at 40yds of .48, and roughly 73.12lbs of KE. The 436g arrow would have a velocity of 279fps at 40yds, a momentum at 40yds of .54, and 74.86lbs of KE. Since I like the idea of using one specific arrow to hunt everything (consistency REALLY helps your judgment in a high pressure situation!), but also like the idea of a flat trajectory for yardage estimate forgiveness (which requires speed)...I'm trying to find myself a middle ground.

 

I also built up a final arrow design. 185g head with a 40g outsert/adapter...on Black Eagle 300 spine X-Impact .231" diameter carbon shafts. Final weight is 462g, with a FOC of 22.5%. Velocity at 40yds is 272fps, with 75.81lbs of KE, and .5573 momentum.

 

As I said, the middle ground is where I'd like to be...but that heavy arrow doesn't seem completely unreasonable. The fun thing about that arrow, is I could easily design a lighter 3D/target arrow to shoot at 60lbs in the off season. Maintaining the same velocity would allow me to keep my sights roughly set the same.

 

Oh, also...a single bevel is a given for me! I trust myself to make great shots, but I don't trust a game animal to just stand there broadside and let me do it...lol.

 

 

Uncle Ted Nugent Has worked on a many Broadhead design from stubby to long ones and he has a line of them out with every thing in between brother . I like the Stubby just remember KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) NOT calling you that by no means either ! saying don't get wrapped up in over thinking the project and you will do an awesome job with them just like you do with your Knives .

 

Good Luck and keep us posted Brother Chris.

 

Blessings & Best Regards

 

Ret, Sgt. Robert Yates

 

Thank you my friend!! I'm a HUGE fan of Ted Nugent, lol. If the guy ran for President, I don't know anyone in my family who wouldn't vote for him. I like how he advocates low poundage and good shot placement for hunting. I'm still not secure enough in my hunting skills to drop things down that low yet...but eventually that's my goal. Your gear lasts longer at lower poundage, and so does your body :).

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To better illustrate what I'm looking at making, it'll be something like a cross between the above posted broadhead, and this one:

 

Unknown_3.jpg

 

The skirt will be brought down some to extend the length, as well as lengthening the tip a bit. I'll probably curve the cutting edge a tiny bit for aesthetics (similar to the first broadhead I posted, but not that aggressive a curve), but I'm aware that the angle of the cut is important, and the curve widens it. I'm thinking somewhere between 1 1/8", to 1 3/16" for the cut diameter...and a minimum of 2.5" of cutting edge. Depending on the ferrules I can get ahold of for a reasonable cost, I'll go as thick on the blade as I reasonably can...and use the taper to the single bevel to correct for weight.

 

I'm also not interested in the bleeders from the top broadhead, as I feel they'll just resist the 'spin' the single bevels are designed for once they've entered the animal.

 

Any other information, critique, or concerns you guys would like to share will be much appreciated :).

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So, I've managed to get a wooden mock up made. I think these will be a good bit easier than I was originally anticipating. My only fight will probably be warping in the quench, lol. I'm hoping tip down, with a smooth immersion into the quenchant will help fight that some though.

 

20141204_180315_1.jpg

1 1/8" cut diameter x 3 3/16" long from tip to the heel of the cutting edge. I haven't determined the final weight yet, but I'm figuring a solid 150g would work. The lightest arrow design requires 150g, but one of the designs I've laid out calls for 250g on the tip. I figure I can make that up with a footed shaft or weighted insert though. That's the DRT broadhead blade above it for comparison, lol.

 

Anyhow, just thought I'd share.

Edited by C.Anderson

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Try quenching into some melted paraffin if your regular quenchant gives you trouble. It was the only thing that worked for a leatherworking awl I made years ago.

 

~Bruce~

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Try quenching into some melted paraffin if your regular quenchant gives you trouble. It was the only thing that worked for a leatherworking awl I made years ago.

 

~Bruce~

 

Thanks, I'll definitely do that Bruce. The steel will likely be W2, since that's the thinnest stock I have to start with. Or I may just end up ordering some .070" 1095 from Aldo. Guess we'll see :).

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ForgedTradePoints7.jpg

 

Look what I found Ray!!

I was doing some research on the chisel tip angle, and found an old thread where you were discussing a young man named Allen and his ability to pack away all you can eat ribs, lol. Its funny...but as big as the internet is, it really is a small, small world when you break it up into interests :).

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Love the Long design Chris . I will be looking at this thread for sure to see how this works out .that Head looks very cool .

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Love the Long design Chris . I will be looking at this thread for sure to see how this works out .that Head looks very cool .

 

Thank you my friend!!

 

I finally got out into the shop yesterday and forged out a blank from W2. I had ordered a few different types of adapter ferrules to try out, and wanted something ready made for when they get here. The main problem I'm having is that the thing is HEAVY. As in...327 grain heavy at this point...with no adapter! I can probably lose 25-30 grain with cutting in the edge, as well as the tanto tip...but the ferrule weight will just push it back up to the same weight range again.

 

Final specs are 1.125" cut diameter, and just shy of 3" edge length (once the tanto tip is cut in). It's currently .075" thick.

 

Here's a picture:

 

20150125_214904.jpg

 

I chose to relieve the butt end rather than extend it, to help reduce weight. I may also inset the ferrule a bit more (the rectangular cutout on the bottom), to reduce the leverage an angled hit would apply on the aluminum ferrule.

 

20150116_171716.jpg

This is one of the ferrule styles I ordered, on a mild steel test template I made. If I use this ferrule, the blade thickness will drop to about .045" or so. That would help with the weight a good bit...MAYBE letting me get down to a 255 grain finished weight. The problem is that this ferrule just doesn't impress me as far as durability goes. It's 6065 aluminum at T6. But the design itself isn't very substantial.

 

Silverflame.jpg

These are the other ferrules I ordered. I can get them in either .071" for heavier blades, or .055" (that's what I actually ordered). These look FAR more substantial...but I'm sure there's a weight hit there too, lol. Build quality is MUCH better...and they're made of 7075 T6 aluminum.

 

Anyhow, just thought I'd share!

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