Cornelius Wiebe Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 So I will be attempting my hand at making damascus soon, and I want to make it as easy as possible for it to go successfully. I have watched and read many tutorials to expand my knowledge on the subject. Now what I would greatly appreciate is for the experts on this forum to give any and all advice, tricks, and techniques that you may have to ensure the success of the welds. Any input will be highly valued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Myers Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I'm by no means an expert, but I've played a bit with it. Make sure your steels are compatible--I tried to weld about a meter long strip of 1080 to patterned wrought, and nearly lost everything, because as the materials cool, they shrink differently. Someone more experienced could probably get something out of it, but that's a quite some time down the road. Another big thing is cleaning materials beforehand. I have varied size steel/salvage--so I often resize. I've noticed inclusions, delamination, ect are much more common if you don't grind off the scale. Also, especially for your first few tries, plan small, and make start with more (much more) material than you'll need in the end. I know with my first few attempts, I did around 60 layers, all on the forge (started with 4 layers, weld, twist, weld, repeat), and lost about 40% of my starting material. My more recent damascus attempts are somewhere around 25% loss. Another big thing is forge type. I've had much better results with welding in propane--because unless you have a massive forge, it takes quite a fire to get enough steel to weld (and not delaminate). I also tried the whole "don't use any modern tools" approach, and used wire to bind the steel, instead of tack welding. That's a terrible idea, till you get good with welds. Anywho, that's my 5 cents--I have no idea where you're at, skill wise, just my own failings. Also! I keep seeing "don't use flux with filings" in it--I've played a bit with it; I've had pretty solid results--I used filings from the material that I was welding together (usually the softer/lower melt layer). I have not noticed a major performance difference between anhydrous and stock borax--not worth the 3 hours to make it. Sorry for the rambling! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin_Lyles Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Along with Isaac, I'm no expert, and consider my self a beginner still, but I'll give you what I know and have used that has worked successfully for me. Like Isaac said, make sure the steel's you are choosing are compatible. I would recommend 15n20 and a 1080 for beginners. That's about as simple as you can get. I cut all my stock to equals lengths and will use an angle grinder to clean the surfaces. Make sure everything is sparkly clean metal and no mill scale. Using latex gloves, I then dunk all my metal into some Isoprophyl alcohol to clean it. Give it a good rub with a clean cloth. The most I've started with is 13 layers, and unless you have a press, I wouldn't go much more. Stack and tac. (I purchased a welder recently so that makes things a bit easier, however, I've used wire with good results, just make sure it's TIGHT) One thing I do differently is I don't use flux unless I REALLY need it. If things are cleaned properly and tacked/wired together tightly, it's not necessarily needed (some will say otherwise). I use a Whisper Mamma propane forge made by NC Tools and let it heat up to temp (mine reaches 2350 f, but you can weld a little under that). Throw the billet in and rotate every 30 seconds. This ensures even heating. Try your best to keep the billet out of direct flame. Look for a lemon yellow color, nearly white. Make sure it's good and hot all the way through. If you see shadows in your billet you need to keep it in a little longer. Take it out and tap it together with firm, but not hard, wacks with a lightweight (2lbs) hammer. You'll feel at first a dull thud and things squishing together, and then once you have a weld it should sound solid and not move as much. When you get it all welded together, make sure to forge at near welding temps, as you could cause some delam if it's forged too cold. That's basically my process. Once you get the basics you can start doing patterns.... and then you'll get hooked. Ughhh The beginning of this WIP may? help visualize what I said. http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=30929&hl=%2Bfeather+%2Bpattern Hopefully I didn't rant too much, and you can get something out of this. Ha. Anyways, good luck my friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Page Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 One thing I might add is grinding a slight crown (convex surface on the width) to the surface of the starting layers (every other one would work, and do it on the thicker ones if you do). That will help prevent inclusions. I have only ever welded with the wire wrap method (at least in my own shop) and it has worked fine. Depending on the type of welder, the shielding material can contaminate the weld, and the heat can cause oxidation near the weld site. Not a major concern though, as most people tack weld the billet together. If you do use wire, make sure it is not galvanized. What I usually do is only use the wire to get it into the forge, let the billet heat up to a dull red, flux, then leave it in until at welding heat. Use a pair of tongs if you can to set the weld the first time, and then you will not have to worry about it falling apart getting it to the anvil. Just squeeze it near the hottest part, a few other places, and let soak a little more. When solidifying the weld with a hammer, start at one end, near the middle width wise, and work out to the edges. This forces out the slag and flux if you use it instead of trapping it between the layers. And definitely don't forge too cold It's tempting to rush it in the excitement of the moment, but chances are it would be better to let it soak a few more minutes before working it. John Not all those who wander are lost. -J.R.R. Tolkien-Shards of the Dark Age- my blog-Nine Worlds Workshop--Last Apocalypse Forge- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Todd Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Like the rest I am no expert. But, I can say with confidence that my forge welding skills are solid. The main thing to remember is temperature and atmosphere. If you are using coal, it must be completely coked and burning clean. When your billet is at an orange heat, apply your flux. Let the flux melt a bit before you put the billet back in the fire. When the billet is at a light color, almost like honey, pull it out and hit the billet quickly front to back or back to front with overlapping blows. If you are using gas, skip the coking and watch your heat and color changes. After you have completed your weld, let the billet cool and grind the edges to see if you have a solid billet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Wiebe Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 The main thing to remember is temperature and atmosphere. If you are using coal, it must be completely coked and burning clean. I am using a coal/charcoal/wood forge. What do you mean by coked and burning clean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emiliano Carrillo Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 When I first started forge welding I used the wire wrap method because I didn't know how to weld yet. I now MIG or TIG weld a straight line down one side of my starting stock to hold it together for the initial welding pass though and then add a handle. When you're forge welding a lot of things can go wrong and sometimes factors can outweigh each other. The surfaces don't always have to be clean. I've welded sections of wrought chain that still had a hundred years of oxide on them just by heating them fluxing and then hand hammering them together and they welded flawlessly, but that isn't ideal by far. If you have access to a welder I would say clean the pieces of steel with a wire brush or something and then weld one end of your billet shut then add a handle. As soon as the outer layers begin to glow a dull red apply the flux on the entire billet. Wait till the inner layers are a dull red also and then apply more flux. After this you can sit still and wait for the billet to reach welding temperature, which I usually judge by the activity of the flux (bubbling is good), color (bright orange nearing white by my eye), and the steam coming off the billet when I remove it from the forge. Start nearest the handle where the weld is and begin to overlap your blows. Forge welding is an explosive process and you cannot afford to lose time anywhere here. As soon as you remove the billet from the forge you are losing heat. Have your wire brush close to remove oxide after the welding passes as well as your flux. When you have done a single pass remove the scale and excess flux from the sides with the brush and flux again. Put it back in the forge as soon as possible and repeat. A good way to test welds is to forge on the bias, and if no splitting happens you are probably good. This is a process that takes time and coordination to get down, and the first couple times are usually kind of rocky, but that's how any learning will go! Be patient, but also work with conviction and speed. There is a video somewhere on the fiery beard forums I think of Jeff welding a billet together for a snake core sword. That is the way I forge weld, with explosive power and precision. Good luck and I hope this didn't just muddy the waters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Todd Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 When I say clean burning, I am referring to coal. When coal is "green" it is full of impurities and moisture. You want to burn that off so that all you have is a "clean burning" fire. If you are using charcoal this doesn't apply. The Japanese only use pine charcoal that is clean burning and actually aids in forging. The only real problem with charcoal is that it takes a large amount to forge weld. Charcoal burns about 20 times faster than coal, so you will need a lot. The big thing is to make sure the billet "soaks" long enough for it to be at heat all the way through. Like I said, look for it to be the color of honey, or straw. You will get the feel for it after a few tries. Don't forget to flux and let it melt before returning to the fire. You don't have to hit it too hard, just firm and quick overlapping blows. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I made this back in 2012 before the first Arctic Fire. It might help. Sorry for the audio. This was back before I knew that you could speak in a normal tone of voice w/ a microphone on even if the forge was so loud no one in the room could hear you. Cheers. -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Waddell Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Nearly a year ago I started Blacksmithing, and went straight to pattern welding. The only tip I can add is for wire wrapping. I've recently started using a torch along with light hammering on the corners while I wrap my billet. This way I get tight right angles and don't worry about the stack becoming lose when its hot and the wire relaxes. I welded a 4" long billet of 18 1/8" layers with no problems this way in a coal forge. Over heating is currently my largest struggle now so watch out for that. After 16 hours of forge work on one billet there are plenty of oportunities to end up with an unexpectedly smaller projects for us beginners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Wiebe Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 Thank you for the advice everyone. Emiliano don't worry if anything you helped clear the waters even more. Thanks for the video Dave, I have actually seen that video before, a little less than a year ago when I just got into bladesmithing. It has some really helpful information in it and I really don't mind watching it a few times. Which I have. Okay let's see if I have things straight. Cut your pieces of steel to length Clean off any mill scale/forge scale there may be and slightly dome the welding plane with angle grinder stack steel, alternating in steel types Weld the ends of the billet or wire wrap, enough to keep steel pieces from separating. Weld handle on the end. Make sure forge is hot enough, then place billet in forge. Allow billet to reach critical temperature, take billet out and generously apply flux(borax, commercial or industrial) to all cracks/crevasses. Place billet back in forge Allow billet to reach welding heat (yellow honey or straw colour) look for boiling flux. let billet soak for a few minutes to ensure even heating all the way through. Take billet from forge. On anvil, using light but firm hammer blows, starting in the centre (or center for you Americans ) hammer the billet from one end to the other, taking care to overlap the blows. rotate blows from the centre outwards to weld the edges. successful welds will be indicated by the transition of the hammer blows making a shallow "think" sound to the blow making a solid "thunk" Reflux and repeat steps 7-8 forge billet to length. Let cool. Grind billet to check welds, also grinding out minor weld flaws and ends where MIG/TIG welds will contaminate steel If desired layer count is not yet reached repeat steps 1-10 until desired layer count is reached Forge blade Am I missing anything? Any further tips and advice that can make my experience a little more successful will be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Myers Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I should modify my previous post a bit--wire wrap is fine, but I've had issues with several things; wires becoming loose, wires burning through, sliding, sometimes difficult to remove, ECT. They work much better with nice, flat steel--that quickly welds. But I've had alright success with thicker, stainless wire. I still stand by my earlier bit-- if you have access to a welder, I'd take advantage of that. For me, it's much easier to tack the billet together, and generally won't burn through One thing that's happened to me, twice now, is once you get to forge welding close to the handle, the electric weld can become pretty brittle (if your handle isn't a comparable temperature), which just makes the day a bit longer--but that's likely because I set my welder shallow, to conserve losses. So pros and cons to both methods, in my experience, I've had more success with just MIGging it. I wish I'd seen Dave's video when I first tried! Pretty solid tutorial, if memory serves. Saftey's a big thing. Wear saftey glasses, face shield, or even welding goggles--you're going to be generating pretty substantial UV. A leather apron's not a bad investment, if you don't already have one. I'm right handed, and generally only wear a right glove (cuts back on a bit of the jumping scale), but usually wear both gloves--if there's space in you billet, the spray of molten borax is pretty intense. Happy welding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Yep, gloves and apron are a must. Molten flux leaves nice little spot-burns on skin, and will leave little holes in your clothes after washing. Eye protection is mandatory for the same reasons. Welding goggles will be too dark to see what you're doing on the anvil, but are handy at first when staring at the billet in the fire to make sure it's all up to temperature until you get used to it. Don't get in the habit of staring into the fire, though, the UV is bad, but the IR will fry your eyes from the inside out. It doesn't burn like an electric arc, but it can lead to cataracts if you overdo it. This takes years, so don't freak out. Just be aware of the potential dangers of what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lester Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 You can also get some IR resistant glasses. I got a mine off a seller on Ebay and you might check ceramic makers supply stores. Plus, as Alan said, don't stare into the forge. Doug HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dougherty Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) A friend of mine made "Forge welding bi-focals" He took an ordinary pair of safety glasses and covered the top half of the lens with #3 welding shields. They look goofy, but he can go from forge to anvil in comfort without skipping a beat. Edited March 19, 2015 by Brian Dougherty -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin_Lyles Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Thank you for the advice everyone. Emiliano don't worry if anything you helped clear the waters even more. Thanks for the video Dave, I have actually seen that video before, a little less than a year ago when I just got into bladesmithing. It has some really helpful information in it and I really don't mind watching it a few times. Which I have. Okay let's see if I have things straight. Cut your pieces of steel to length Clean off any mill scale/forge scale there may be and slightly dome the welding plane with angle grinder stack steel, alternating in steel types Weld the ends of the billet or wire wrap, enough to keep steel pieces from separating. Weld handle on the end. Make sure forge is hot enough, then place billet in forge. Allow billet to reach critical temperature, take billet out and generously apply flux(borax, commercial or industrial) to all cracks/crevasses. Place billet back in forge Allow billet to reach welding heat (yellow honey or straw colour) look for boiling flux. let billet soak for a few minutes to ensure even heating all the way through. Take billet from forge. On anvil, using light but firm hammer blows, starting in the centre (or center for you Americans ) hammer the billet from one end to the other, taking care to overlap the blows. rotate blows from the centre outwards to weld the edges. successful welds will be indicated by the transition of the hammer blows making a shallow "think" sound to the blow making a solid "thunk" Reflux and repeat steps 7-8 forge billet to length. Let cool. Grind billet to check welds, also grinding out minor weld flaws and ends where MIG/TIG welds will contaminate steel If desired layer count is not yet reached repeat steps 1-10 until desired layer count is reached Forge blade Am I missing anything? Any further tips and advice that can make my experience a little more successful will be greatly appreciated. little more successful will be greatly appreciated. If fluxing,I believe you're supposed to flux it when the steel is just turning a dull red. If brought up to temp and then fluxxed, your steel will have oxides/decarb. Other then that, you're lookin solid. Good luck! Edited March 19, 2015 by Austin_Lyles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Cochran Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) A friend of mine made "Forge welding bi-focals" He took an ordinary pair of safety glasses and covered the top half of the lens with #3 welding shields. They look goofy, but he can go from forge to anvil in comfort without skipping a beat. If only I could make that work over my prescription lenses that would be awesome. Edit to fix spelling blunder Edited March 20, 2015 by M. Cochran Michael Cochran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Todd Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 One more thing you may want to do, especially if you are using think stock. Pre-heat your anvil with a large piece of hot steel. If you place a billet on a cold anvil, it will wick away heat from the layer that is touching it. I have a special piece of steel welded to a length of rebar that is 1 inch thick 4 inches wide and 6 inches long. I get it yellow hot and place it between the dies on my press, close the dies so they touch and leave it for a 10 minutes. By this time the dies are hot and don't wick away heat(as much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dougherty Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 If only I could make that work over my prescription lenses that would be awesome. Edit to fix spelling blunder Actually, his are a pair of goggles that he does wear over his prescription glasses. He just taped pieces of the welding glass over the top half of the goggles. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Cochran Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 What kind are they, do you know? All the safety glasses I try don't sit right because of my glasses that or they distort things when looking through them. As a result I don't wear any like I know I should. Michael Cochran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dougherty Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Michael, They are just standard lab safety goggles like you would see in a chemistry lab. Sort of like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#safety-goggles/=we3vsa I don't wear prescription glasses (yet) so I can't really comment on how well they fit over them, but it's what my friend does while welding. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrod Miller Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 What kind are they, do you know? All the safety glasses I try don't sit right because of my glasses that or they distort things when looking through them. As a result I don't wear any like I know I should. I hope you have at least considered prescription safety glasses. I know it is an expensive extra, but your eyes! Also, I like to keep a pair of Uvex IR rated glasses on hand. I personally like the shade 2.0 better than the 3.0, but if they had a 2.5 I would bet that it would be ideal. Their literature says it blocks 99.9% of UV, 93% blue light hazard, and 85% of IR radiation. You can also get flip-up lenses that fit over safety glasses or attached to the bill of a hat. Some are more expensive than others, so beware. I have a pair attached to my hard hat at work and can stare into an arc furnace with them (they are the $50+ kind, cobalt blue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Cochran Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Thanks Brian I'll check those out. Jerrod I'd love to have prescription saftey glasses but I can barely afford the last pair of glasses (3 years ago) and cannot afford niceties like that. Maybe one day I'll get a better paying job or my wife will be able to find work then I could. I will keep that in the back of my mind though, I do appreciate the suggestion. Michael Cochran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Wiebe Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Alright understood. Safety first! That's always a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Wiebe Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) Well I figured I might as well turn this into a WIP. That way I can get step by step advice if there is any more. I got the billet welded together today, with a nice handle. I started out with three pieces of 1095 and 15n20. Here you can see them after I cleaned all the grime and oil off them, and the unholy flammable bottle of ether I used to clean them. I'm a farmer, nothing cleans better than ether and brake cleaner lol. Each piece is slightly domed on one side as was suggested. And the billet welded together plus a rebar handle. Again comments, tips, advice and criticism is more than welcomed. Edited March 25, 2015 by Cornelius Wiebe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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